What Makes Old-Vines Old-Vines???

Most all of us worship at the altar of old-vines (some even worship at the altar of "terroir" or "varietal typicity"). We "know" that old-vines give superior wine to young-vines. We've tasted so many stunning wines, particularly Zin, that were made from old-vines. We know that old-vines have very deep root systems that allows them to bring moisture to the vines in dry yrs. These deep root systems search out sub-surface materials to feed the vines. Because of their age, old-vines naturally have smaller yields and we "know" that wine quality varies inversely to the yield. These are all beliefs that I can go along with.

So, my question of the day is: What makes old-vines old-vines?? What makes them so special?? Is it strictly because of the old-vine root system or the entire old-vine package itself?? If it's the latter, why is that??

There is a reason for my query...it's not just the sign of an idle mind on a Fri morning.

DeRoseWnry in the CienegaVlly advertises its Viognier as coming from 100+ yr old vines. Say whot?? Viognier didn't come to Calif until the early-'80's time frame. So how could this be??

Turns out, they top-grafted a small block of their certifiable old-vine Zinfandel over to Viognier some 10-15 yrs ago.

So....is this really old-vine Viognier because it is attached to an old-vine root system?? Or is it not??

You will, of course, be graded on your answer at the end of this thread and those folks w/ a correct answer will be amply rewarded.

Tom

Well, its a great question....

If they're going to claim their Viog is 100+ years old because they grafted it onto old roots then I am going to claim the Muller Thurgau vine I planted in my back garden is 132 years old because its genetically the same plant that Prof Muller bred in 1882, in fact its the same plant, a cutting of a cutting of a ......and those with Pinot vines can claim they're 1000+ year old.

Putting aside the fact that it seems a crime to chainsaw away e 100+ year old Zinfandel to grow the currently fashionable Viognier..

I guess the special thing about old vines is that they are special because they'e lasted. If they weren't special they would have been replanted long ago.

In France there is no legal definition of "vieilles vignes" (= old vines) and I think it's the same throughout Europe. Its value on a label depends on the producer's reputation. I tend to think that the greater precision of "50 year old wines" makes for a more reliable indicator as I believe that, in many jurisdictions, a consumer might be able sue if he can prove that this is not the case.

As for top-grafting onto old roots, I would need to know whether the young Viognier vines somehow acquire extra quality from the old Zin roots before deciding whether the 100 year vine claim is sharp practice. Does anyone here know the answer to that? I am sceptical about it.

As for top-grafting onto old roots, I would need to know whether the young Viognier vines somehow acquire extra quality from the old Zin roots before deciding whether the 100 year vine claim is sharp practice. Does anyone here know the answer to that? I am sceptical about it.

Don't know the answer to that on, Tim.
I have had the DeRose OldVine Viognier once. Was not able to pick up any identifiable (to me) OV character.
But then, OV character in a white is not as evident to me as in OV Zin. I guess I'd have to taste the DeRose
OV and YoungVine Viognier side-by-side to see if I could identify anything.
Tom

Tom Hill wrote;
Turns out, they top-grafted a small block of their certifiable old-vine Zinfandel over to Viognier some 10-15 yrs. ago.
So....is this really old-vine Viognier because it is attached to an old-vine root system?? Or is it not??

Only time will tell. (Does the new rootstock-scion relationship perform just as you describe consistently? Naturally lower yield of “healthy/ ripe” and concentrated fruit)?

Salute