California Pinot and Tannin

[David M. Bueker]

So I am a fan of a number of new wave California Pinots (e.g. Rhys, Wid Gap, Arnot-Roberts), and a few old school ones as well (e.g. Mout Eden). I love the fruit expression. The one thing that leaves me just a touch disappointed is the lack of tannic structure. the wines sure seem to have the fruit to support it. Even lower level Burgundies have more tannin than some of the best California Pinots, and so I find the balance better in Burgundy.

Anybody else have thoughts on this?

Jim Cowan - as our resident California Pinot Noir maker - any thoughts?

So I am a fan of a number of new wave California Pinots (e.g. Rhys, Wid Gap, Arnot-Roberts), and a few old school ones as well (e.g. Mout Eden). I love the fruit expression. The one thing that leaves me just a touch disappointed is the lack of tannic structure. the wines sure seem to have the fruit to support it. Even lower level Burgundies have more tannin than some of the best California Pinots, and so I find the balance better in Burgundy.

Anybody else have thoughts on this?

Jim Cowan - as our resident California Pinot Noir maker - any thoughts?

David,
Assuming your premise, one would expect site, farming and vine age to be the major variables.
In general, techniques in winemaking are similar as are techniques in elevage.
Perhaps, one winemaking technique is more frequently used in CA; pressing off sweet. Meaning that the must is pressed before it completes fermentation and is barreled down to finish. This tends to deliver softer tannins and more immediately approachable wines.
But things like stem inclusion, additives and fining/filtering may also differ in matter of degree.
Too bad the Clark Smith forum is closed on Berserkers - good question for him.
Best, Jim

[David M. Bueker]

Yeah, I thought of it a while back, and then was out of the country and largely inactive while Clark was on line.

Dave, I, too, in general find that CA pinot noir tends to be lower in tannins and acidity than red Burgundy.

One producer who I've been fond of over the years is Saintsbury. I opened a 15-year-old bottle of their Carneros bottling last month and it was a dead ringer for a Nuits-St.-Georges villages. All kind of finesse and complexity had replaced the simpler fruit flavors it had when it was young. Schug and Carneros Creek have also struck me as CA pinots that are towards the Burgundian end of the spectrum, although I don't have any experience with aging those. Rodney Strong pinot noir, on the other hand was on the over-oaked fruit bomb side--not a flavor profile I find appealing.

-Paul W.

[Jenise]

David, would you include Rivers Marie in that group? Bob and I ordered a bottle at Scarpetta recently--we had ordered all lighter dishes with which a California pinot I'd been curious about but never tasted elsewhere seemed the perfect thing to try. And I, who drink mostly European wines, found myself searching for the tannins. THAT SAID, it was also sublime, had a quiet quality to it that grew on me--it was a Brahms lullaby of California pinots. I woke up the next morning tasting it, kept going over and over it in my head over the next few weeks to the point of near obsession. Which I happened to mention to a friend who, it turns out, had a double allocation, and so as we speak a shipment is on it's way to me that is going to shoot my R-M bottle count from 0 to 20. Insanity. But I couldn't get that wine out of my head. Older burgundies do that for me, but rarely young ones.

[David M. Bueker]

I've only ever had one Rivers-Marie wine, and it was a small tasting pour, so I cannot really say. I do enjoy the fruit in California Pinot (the modern*, more restrained style), and keep buying the wines. My latest swoon was for Littorai.

*I do find it interesting that at least for me, "modern" no longer means blockbuster, fruit milkshake wine, but rather more elegant, fruity but not just fruity wines.

[Jenise]

I've only ever had one Rivers-Marie wine, and it was a small tasting pour, so I cannot really say. I do enjoy the fruit in California Pinot (the modern*, more restrained style), and keep buying the wines. My latest swoon was for Littorai.

*I do find it interesting that at least for me, "modern" no longer means blockbuster, fruit milkshake wine, but rather more elegant, fruity but not just fruity wines.

Hmm. Interesting point there. I used 'modern' just an hour ago in complaining to critic Paul Gregutt that his recco of a particular Washington winery's products failed, for all he did say about them, to include any assessment of that winery's style which may have changed since about ten years ago when the one bottle of their wine I had was "heavy, extracted and sweet". I recognize that the wine industry is, overall, moving in yours and my direction, but I'm obviously still on the old platform. To get off of it, do I re-define modern or create a new term? Help needed.

[David M. Bueker]

Post-modern?

Post-modern?

Not according to Clark Smith

Mark Lipton

I recently purchased six bottles of Rivers-Marie Pinot Noir (four different bottlings) but haven't ever tasted them. I may try one of the Sonoma Coast Pinot Noirs (the least expensive of my order) soon after they arrive to get a sense of their style. Some years ago at the Charlotte Wine and Food Weekend I was mistaken in a semi-blind tasting as to which wines were from California and which were from Burgundy (all the California wines being from Saintsbury including their Brown Ranch Pinot.)

[Jenise]

I recently purchased six bottles of Rivers-Marie Pinot Noir (four different bottlings) but haven't ever tasted them. I may try one of the Sonoma Coast Pinot Noirs (the least expensive of my order) soon after they arrive to get a sense of their style. Some years ago at the Charlotte Wine and Food Weekend I was mistaken in a semi-blind tasting as to which wines were from California and which were from Burgundy (all the California wines being from Saintsbury including their Brown Ranch Pinot.)

I'm pretty sure I'm getting some of those too. I didn't cherry pick. It was late at night, the wine was flowing and my friend Hal's generosity in sharing his allocation went straight to my head--I took everything. Had no idea what "everything" was until I got the $1300 bill. (You should have seen me explaining this to Bob.)

[David M. Bueker]

Had no idea what "everything" was until I got the $1300 bill. (You should have seen me explaining this to Bob.)

Can you tell me what you said? I am going to need it for the next two billing cycles!

I recently purchased six bottles of Rivers-Marie Pinot Noir (four different bottlings) but haven't ever tasted them. I may try one of the Sonoma Coast Pinot Noirs (the least expensive of my order) soon after they arrive to get a sense of their style. Some years ago at the Charlotte Wine and Food Weekend I was mistaken in a semi-blind tasting as to which wines were from California and which were from Burgundy (all the California wines being from Saintsbury including their Brown Ranch Pinot.)

I'm pretty sure I'm getting some of those too. I didn't cherry pick. It was late at night, the wine was flowing and my friend Hal's generosity in sharing his allocation went straight to my head--I took everything. Had no idea what "everything" was until I got the $1300 bill. (You should have seen me explaining this to Bob.)

Hmm. So the standard "But Bob, honey, I saved SO MUCH MONEY I just couldn't miss the opportunity..." didn't work, huh?

[David M. Bueker]

Ah the old case discount excuse!

Ah the old case discount excuse!

Also known as the "Shoe Justification Gambit" among certain households, David, but usable with all clothes buying decisions as well.

[David M. Bueker]

I'm going to call it the Torres del Paine defense.

[Jenise]

Had no idea what "everything" was until I got the $1300 bill. (You should have seen me explaining this to Bob.)

Can you tell me what you said? I am going to need it for the next two billing cycles!

I just made it clear that it was his fault for not stopping me.