WTN: Rotting Stinking Cabbage Cabernet Blend

[Jenise]

I am absolutely at a loss to reconcile Tanzer's 92 pt description against the rotting cabbage/sewage nose on the four identically tainted bottles of 2007 Meerlust Rubicon I bought and poured for a local wine tasting a few weeks ago. Opened early in the day, splash decanted and left to air out over about eight hours, though some fruit developed in that time the stench never did blow away. I'm very familiar with this wine in other vintages and know this not to be typical of either the wine nor any of the grapes in the typical Bordeaux blend. What in the world explains this problem? Four bottles says it's an issue with the wine itself and not the bottling line--or does it? Any expert opinions?

Stinky cabbage sounds like reduction (mercaptans)

Is it screwcapped? Sometimes folks new to stelvin over-sulphur.

Is it screwcapped? Sometimes folks new to stelvin over-sulphur.

Dale,
There's a big difference between sulfides and sulfites. Added sulfites don't initiate the sulfide reaction.
But you're right, the stink Jenise speaks of is very likely mercaptans or some compound along that continuum.

Jenise,
The "old wives tale" says throw a penny into the wine and see if it helps. But if the chemical reaction is too far along, copper, by itself, won't make a difference.

Best, Jim

[Jenise]

Is it screwcapped? Sometimes folks new to stelvin over-sulphur.

Hmmm, no, I'm pretty sure they were cork closures. Yeah, only one screwcap on the six wines in the tasting I now remember, and it wasn't that wine.

[Jenise]

But you're right, the stink Jenise speaks of is very likely mercaptans or some compound along that continuum.

So how do mercaptans develop--where's the fault in the process, that is? Dirty bottles, barrel or tank? Steve Tanzer didn't encounter any mercaptans, and no other Cellartracker reporters found what we did in our four bottles.

It is, btw, something I've encountered before--but it's been a long time since the last time, and I never understood it nor had four bottles identically affected.

Mercaptans result from the wine spending an extended time in a reductive state (the opposite of oxidation). In a reductive state, hydrogen sulfide (H2S) develops and it is easily identified by a rotten-egg odor. The H2S problem can be fixed using a copper treatment. However, if the problem isn't resolved in a timely manner, the H2S will bond with compounds in the wine and form mercaptans. Incidentally, mercaptans, because of their low odor threshold, are added to natural gas, which would otherwise be odorless. I suspect the wine was probably fine when it was bottled, but may have had a low level of H2s and the mercaptans developed in the bottle. A local winery had this problem with Pinot Noir, the only wine they made. They are now out of business.

Jenise,
Howie gives a good synopsis of the problem.
Should you wish to learn more, may I suggest:
http://www.practicalwinery.com/janfeb09/page1.htm
Best, Jim

I agree with Jim’s assessment (Howie did a great job). Mercaptans become disulfides (less offensive odors) and possible to some degree contribute to what we believe is “varietal character” when the wine is in an “oxidative state” (such as an oak barrel). But once corked depending upon how the cork performs the wine could find itself (as Howie noted) in a “reductive state” and start shifting in that direction and those disulfides (possibly less offensive odor, higher perception threshold) could reduce back into mercaptans (more offensive odors, much lower perception threshold). (It only has to shift just a little bit, once the “system” shifts and reaches an “equilibrium” its hard to get it to go back).

Salute

[Jenise]

I agree with Jim’s assessment (Howie did a great job). Mercaptans become disulfides (less offensive odors) and possible to some degree contribute to what we believe is “varietal character” when the wine is in an “oxidative state” (such as an oak barrel). But once corked depending upon how the cork performs the wine could find itself (as Howie noted) in a “reductive state” and start shifting in that direction and those disulfides (possibly less offensive odor, higher perception threshold) could reduce back into mercaptans (more offensive odors, much lower perception threshold). (It only has to shift just a little bit, once the “system” shifts and reaches an “equilibrium” its hard to get it to go back).

Salute

Okay, but I was very specific about the cabbage. There used to be a cabbage farm near my father's house and there were a few weeks there after the cabbages were picked and the rest of the plants were left to mulch themselves when things smelled pretty bad. This was that smell, not the H2S of rotting eggs--I've worked on a lot of refinery projects, and that aroma is quite different.

But let's say the problem was mercaptans. Is that the result of a different type of bad cork? Is it usual that whole batches would be identically tainted?

Hi Jenise.
The following ETS bulletin may help

http://www.etslabs.com/assets/PTB022-ET ... alysis.pdf

Salute

H2S smells like rotten eggs. Mercaptans don't.

Jenise,
You have probably surmised this from the articles posted, but there are a whole range of compounds that can be formed from sulfides and each has its own peculiar smell.
These reactions can happen in barrel or tank (or start there) so the closure of the bottle may have nothing to do with what you smell. Of course, screwcaps may make it worse (no air exchange) and I assume corks that allow little air exchange may also. But closures are relevant only to initial stages of "sulfides gone bad" - once mercaptans are formed, oxygen alone won't help.
There is a good bit known about sulfide chemistry but when one starts factoring in closures, etc. the predictions get a bit harder to make - and so they're explanations.
Best, Jim

[Jenise]

Jenise,
You have probably surmised this from the articles posted, but there are a whole range of compounds that can be formed from sulfides and each has its own peculiar smell.
These reactions can happen in barrel or tank (or start there) so the closure of the bottle may have nothing to do with what you smell. Of course, screwcaps may make it worse (no air exchange) and I assume corks that allow little air exchange may also. But closures are relevant only to initial stages of "sulfides gone bad" - once mercaptans are formed, oxygen alone won't help.
There is a good bit known about sulfide chemistry but when one starts factoring in closures, etc. the predictions get a bit harder to make - and so they're explanations.
Best, Jim

I'm just trying to understand in which vessel at what point in the timeline this develops--I'm talking to the distributor (not retailer, but actual distributor) and of course they're telling me they've not had this problem reported about this wine before. But obviously if I had four tainted bottles, the rest of the case and a lot more are just like this. Not that they've tasted one super recently, but still, it's an 07, it's been around awhile. (Funny story, it only got one vote at the tasting I poured it at--from a woman who had gotten a permanent that day. )

Carbon disulfide (CS2) has a rotten cabbage odor. This is consistent with the observations concerning disulfides and mercaptans that can develop when wine is in a reductive environment.

-Paul W.

[Jenise]

H2S smells like rotten eggs. Mercaptans don't.

I get that, but I wanted to make sure you knew I wasn't mistaking one for the other.

Jenise,
A reductive environment is one absent oxygen, so any vessel that excludes oxygen can be the culprit.
But what is equally important to understand us that the sulfide continuum starts with that rotten egg aroma (and at that point, may be cured simply by racking) and progresses along a line that can lead to mercaptans or worse.
Hence, the whole process can start in barrel at one position along the continuum and wind- up in bottle at another.

Or not.

Not all wines that smell of sulfides will get worse. Some seem to work through that stage and are perfectly healthy come bottling or drinking time. Why one goes south and the other does not is beyond my experience.

As noted in the website that Victor cites, there can be a number of causes, singularly or in concert. But why one wine survives and one doesn't isn't something I can explain.
Nor can I explain if what happens in barrel gets worse or better in bottle.

Shit happens.
Best, Jim

[Jenise]

As noted in the website that Victor cites, there can be a number of causes, singularly or in concert. But why one wine survives and one doesn't isn't something I can explain.
Nor can I explain if what happens in barrel gets worse or better in bottle.

Shit happens.
Best, Jim

I did read all the reference material, and I thank you all for that. None of them answered the question you just tried to answer though about whether or not it's apparent at the time of bottling, or something that worsens with time. Either way, though, it seems at least 99.9% probable that the rest of the case my four bottles came from have the identical issue. (Not that I'll get my money back or am even trying to--I didn't have bottles to return, so that's that. I just can't stand them acting like they didn't know. They had to have--they just work off of some supposition that 98 out of 100 can't tell the diff or wouldn't return them.)

As noted in the website that Victor cites, there can be a number of causes, singularly or in concert. But why one wine survives and one doesn't isn't something I can explain.
Nor can I explain if what happens in barrel gets worse or better in bottle.

Shit happens.
Best, Jim

I did read all the reference material, and I thank you all for that. None of them answered the question you just tried to answer though about whether or not it's apparent at the time of bottling, or something that worsens with time. Either way, though, it seems at least 99.9% probable that the rest of the case my four bottles came from have the identical issue. (Not that I'll get my money back or am even trying to--I didn't have bottles to return, so that's that. I just can't stand them acting like they didn't know. They had to have--they just work off of some supposition that 98 out of 100 can't tell the diff or wouldn't return them.)

Understood.
My experience is that it is the rare retailer who will agree with his customer's complaint. But then, I am seriously out of the loop.
Best, Jim

Jenise, just wondering about one thing: you describe the wine as "rotting, stinking cabbage", but you still served it at a tasting. Why?

Greetings from Sweden / Fredrik L

[Jenise]

Jenise, just wondering about one thing: you describe the wine as "rotting, stinking cabbage", but you still served it at a tasting. Why?

Greetings from Sweden / Fredrik L

Fredrik, all of these wines were acquired from 50-100 miles away; no local substitutes were possible. People pay to taste six wines, so I let that one be a learning exercise. Next day, I wish I'd just substituted another non-S.A. wine from my own cellar, but somehow that didn't seem like a good idea on the actual day.

Jenise,
The "old wives tale" says throw a penny into the wine and see if it helps. But if the chemical reaction is too far along, copper, by itself, won't make a difference.

By the way, that old wives tale did work, but hasn't for quite a while now. It worked because of the H2S bonding to the copper in the penny, but since there hasn't been any copper in a "copper penny" for some years now (all alloys), it doesn't work anymore.

Of course, you could simply use a small piece of copper wire; that would do the trick. But since most people don't carry around copper wire, and most suphur-flaw wines are captured (little joke there) before they get to the consumer these days, it's not that important anyway.

Jenise: re the use of the wine anyway, I certainly see your line of thought there. I would have been tempted to do likewise, simply as a learning opportunity. But I resist such things as a "learning experience" unless I am confident that I know what the flaw is before I serve it. I woulda probably served it also, and said, "See, this is what they mean when they say 'This wine has mercaptans'."

By the way, that old wives tale did work, but hasn't for quite a while now. It worked because of the H2S bonding to the copper in the penny, but since there hasn't been any copper in a "copper penny" for some years now (all alloys), it doesn't work anymore....

I keep a pre-1983 penny packed with my vinerator. Incidentally, I received a 1944 Mercury head dime in change from a 7-11 yesterday.

By the way, that old wives tale did work, but hasn't for quite a while now. It worked because of the H2S bonding to the copper in the penny, but since there hasn't been any copper in a "copper penny" for some years now (all alloys), it doesn't work anymore.

Hoke, AFAIK there still is some copper in a penny. Or rather on the penny, otherwise it wouldn't be that color. Maybe the chemists will weigh in here but I figure it would been only the outer layer of even an old-fashioned penny that was involved in this reaction. So my guess would be the modern copper-plated zinc job would work pretty much the same in this application as the older all-copper variety. But I could be wrong.