Long Term Storage / Temp flucuations

Hello all. I am new to starting a wine collection. I have a few high end wines that need 20 or 30+ years in the cellar. I currently have a cellar (home basement) that seems to keep between 54 and 57 degrees (mostly 55) and 50-60 % humidity. I don't think it fluctuates more than a degree a day unless its a pretty drastic weather change outside. My problem is that I will be acquiring many more bottles but I am moving in about a year or a year and a half. I plan on getting a eurocave when I buy another house but I may have to store the wine in someone else's basement (while I'm in an apartment) for a year or 2 while I'm house hunting. If the wine is now holding about 55 and I have to move it to a friends house in a basement or something that holds low to mid 60's (for about a year or so) and then put it back in the eurocve (when I get) at 55 degrees, will that year or 2 in the 60 something degree range hurt the wine in the long run?

I am not buying a eurocave until I get a new house.

[Jenise]

Kevin, where do you live? (Wondering about your climate.) Your current basement situation sounds good. And I guess you don't know if you're going to have a good basement where you're moving to, though maybe you're moving to another geographic zone where basements aren't common so you know already. Anyway, with the value of the wines you're describing in your other thread (I don't have much to offer on the topic of investment, since I buy for personal consumption only), I'm wondering if you shouldn't consider professional wine storage instead of trusting those to a friend's basement. A friend of mine did that, and it turned out that the Italian student boarding with the next door neighbor saw all those bottles going in, and helped himself. A huge loss, and glugged down by someone who knew good vino from bad but not good from outstanding.

I'm actually moving to Raleigh, and I live in Philly now. I know that basements are not common in Raleigh and even if they were I think I'd still buy a Eurocave. I'm just impatient, and trying to grab as many 2010 bordeauxs (GREAT vintage) as I can while they're still around. I did look into wine storage but it seems to be non existent from the searching that I've done so far not to mention I'm not spending more than $20 a month for that. I'm just concerned because "most" wine experts say that wine should be always keep in the 55-58 range when its there, so I dont know how much, if any, I'm hurting the wine having it go from 55 to 60 something for a year or 2 and then back to 55 in the Eurocave when I get it.

Sorry about your friends wine. I really trust the people that I have in mind though if need be

Personally I think it's a poor investment strategy.

Long term storage in a Eurocave is going to be expensive. Electricity is expensive and only getting worse, You'll probably have to replace the Eurocave(s) at least once or twice over the 30 year life of the wine. There are questions also about Eurocaves and the vibrations being poor for the wine long term.

There are the costs for your space, moving the wine, and when you look to sell there is a fairly steep cost at auction houses.

Wine is no longer a "secret". In fact most blue chip wines and vintages these days seem to not increase in value much after release (from my limited personal observation).

On top of that most wine at auction houses comes with the note "professionally stored since release", which your wine will not be able to claim. So your wine might trade at a discount. If I were buying a trophy wine I would not be in the market that was "stored in a friend's basement for a while then in a Eurocave".

I buy (and age) wine for personal enjoyment. Perhaps you should try that first till you get a keener grasp of the market. If you are looking at 30 year investments perhaps taking a year or two till you settle is wise. There will be another "Vintage of the Century" soon enough.

Actually, I'd never sell a wine via auction. There are plenty of other ways to privately sell wine (especially 20 years from now) - but that's not the point and I also dont "buy" the "professionally stored blah blah blah". Thats like buying a motorcycle from a guy that says "yeah, she's NEVER seen rain!!", knowing full well that things been though dozens of downpours. All wine goes through temp changes from vineyard, to transport, to warehouse, to next warehouse, to buyers warehouse then to the final sellers room temperature store - essentially giving that "professionally stored since purchase" wine its own "Stored at a friends house then a Eurocave" bottom line. Also, at 38 I don't have time to wait for another "vintage of the century". I'm not necessarily buying these as a retirement strategy. This is a hobby and a passion, and I would be just as happy drinking it in 30 years as I would in selling it.

Dont think I need to wait to read the market or to get "keen", I've been following it (and drinking it) for MANY years - but thanks!

I also beg to differ at the value of wine, given that a Lynch Bages 2009 (and thats just a simple one) has already doubled in price since release. Wine being a "secret" is irrelevant given that the entire process is based on vintage quality and supply and demand. Its also about the thrill of it. I have enough disposable income to play around with it, so I do.

I actually haven't heard anything bad about Eurocaves, ever, so 2 grand on one every 15-20 years is no problem. I'd have one now but I simply don't have the space - small Philly row home. Lets also not forget that there is no known scientific evidence that proves vibration is bad for wine in the long term. I wouldn't say I'd put my wine under a train station, but I certainly wouldn't fret over slight vibrations from a top of the line wine cellar, especially one that's known to be the best in the world and vouched for by the worlds top wine critics. Theres also a very good possibility I could move right from here (cellar'd at 55 degrees right to a Eurocave in Raleigh - another reason I'm not waiting)

Lets not focus on my plans for the wine (COMPLETELY irrelevant) and please focus on the question, the integrity of the wine through the mentioned temp changes. Thats the information I am after and I'm simply just trying to gather info to make an informed decision. Thanks!

[David M. Bueker]

So you know the market but need to turn to people you have never met for storage advice? If you are doing this as an investment then you have turned to the wrong community. We're drinkers.

[Jenise]

Actually, I'd never sell a wine via auction. There are plenty of other ways to privately sell wine (especially 20 years from now) - but that's not the point and I also dont "buy" the "professionally stored blah blah blah". Thats like buying a motorcycle from a guy that says "yeah, she's NEVER seen rain!!", knowing full well that things been though dozens of downpours. All wine goes through temp changes from vineyard, to transport, to warehouse, to next warehouse, to buyers warehouse then to the final sellers room temperature store - essentially giving that "professionally stored since purchase" wine its own "Stored at a friends house then a Eurocave" bottom line. Also, at 38 I don't have time to wait for another "vintage of the century". I'm not necessarily buying these as a retirement strategy. This is a hobby and a passion, and I would be just as happy drinking it in 30 years as I would in selling it.

Dont think I need to wait to read the market or to get "keen", I've been following it (and drinking it) for MANY years - but thanks!

I also beg to differ at the value of wine, given that a Lynch Bages 2009 (and thats just a simple one) has already doubled in price since release. Wine being a "secret" is irrelevant given that the entire process is based on vintage quality and supply and demand. Its also about the thrill of it. I have enough disposable income to play around with it, so I do.

I actually haven't heard anything bad about Eurocaves, ever, so 2 grand on one every 15-20 years is no problem. I'd have one now but I simply don't have the space - small Philly row home. Lets also not forget that there is no known scientific evidence that proves vibration is bad for wine in the long term. I wouldn't say I'd put my wine under a train station, but I certainly wouldn't fret over slight vibrations from a top of the line wine cellar, especially one that's known to be the best in the world and vouched for by the worlds top wine critics. Theres also a very good possibility I could move right from here (cellar'd at 55 degrees right to a Eurocave in Raleigh - another reason I'm not waiting)

Lets not focus on my plans for the wine (COMPLETELY irrelevant) and please focus on the question, the integrity of the wine through the mentioned temp changes. Thats the information I am after and I'm simply just trying to gather info to make an informed decision. Thanks!

Kevin, I have friends who have had their wine in Eurocaves for decades--most with no issues to report. Like any appliance, things can and do happen to unlucky people, but from my casual observation they're pretty trouble-free. As you obviously realize the colder and steadier the temperature the better for the wine, but at the same time slow, minor fluctuations with temperatures not exceeding 70 degrees isn't going to cause harm, either. As someone who buys a lot of wine second-hand, though I can relate to Matt's citing professional wine storage as a 'best possible' situation for second-hand purchases, "temperature controlled storage" is what I look for, private or professional. I know how I keep my own wine and wouldn't hesitate to purchase from someone who kept their wine as I do.

And I understand what you mean by the thrill. Unfortunately, I can't look at a really high price and imagine it doubling or quadrupling--it has happened to wines I own, but not because I anticipated it. Wish we could all figure out what the Chinese are going to go gaga over next!

Thanks!

Yeah I am just looking at ideas and getting peoples thoughts. Most likely I would put it in a bonded warehouse when I move out and before I get the Eurocave. I just cant see, for right now, paying (its the principal, not the $) upwards of $50 a month for a year or 2. For 3 years of storage I'd almost own a Eurocave, instead of having nothing. I've heard people say wine facilities are a better bargain. Not really sure why they would say that. An "average cave is about 2 grand, so after 3 years of renting a wine space, you could own a cave. After 6 years, I'd own 2 - which would give you about 30 to 40 years of wine storage at 55 degrees and about 20 maybe 30 bucks a month tops fr electric. I'm not really into the "leasing" type situations. I'd rather own than rent. At the end of 30+ years, you'd be ahead of the game (about $3,000 by my calculations) although if you want to sell it through auctions, which I don't, maybe the bonded warehouse is for you. Honestly, it would be a cold day you know where before I ever leased a car instead of buying it, because I can always sell the car and walk away with $.

All storage and investment aside, my main question here is the temp fluctuation. Is moving it from 55 to low 60's for a year or 2, and then moving BACK to 55 degrees for the long haul bad for the wine? Thats what I'm looking for. Even if I don't do, I still would like the knowledge.

So you know the market but need to turn to people you have never met for storage advice? If you are doing this as an investment then you have turned to the wrong community. We're drinkers.

The market and wine values have nothing to do with a random storage question (which you haven't answered, despite a lengthy response) . This inst rocket science. Its PROVEN that certain things increase in value over time like paintings, metals, WINES, stocks, old cars, coins...............................Its just picking the right ones - which is NOT the info I'm after.

Just because someone asks about the storage of a Picasso, doesn't mean he doesn't know its valuable or will increase in value. I'm not trying to argue, I'm just looking for info. People are focusing TOO much on the unimportant aspects. The title says nothing about wine values or collecting wine. Thanks!

[David M. Bueker]

Umm...well...ok...I keep a very cold cellar, but I have observed, from a number of good friends that have good, but less "perfect" cellaring that wines are more durable than we might think. That said, an auction house is not going to take "stored in a Eurocave" or other such statement as something bullet proof. There is a lot of skepticism in the auction market right now, so less than perfect and ideal provenance is going to meet with less than ideal returns, and frankly turn your "proven to increase in value" statement into the strawman that it is.

Umm...well...ok...I keep a very cold cellar, but I have observed, from a number of good friends that have good, but less "perfect" cellaring that wines are more durable than we might think. That said, an auction house is not going to take "stored in a Eurocave" or other such statement as something bullet proof. There is a lot of skepticism in the auction market right now, so less than perfect and ideal provenance is going to meet with less than ideal returns, and frankly turn your "proven to increase in value" statement into the strawman that it is.

Auction houses are no where in this equation. I would never even consider it. I know people who fare better on the private secondary market. Middlemen (auction houses) are for suckers OR, for people with collections over 6 figures, or generally in that area and/or also for lazy people who don't want to deal with the selling aspect of it.

If you meant straw man, then there's really no debate and there's no disregard for any stated points (the old Aunt Sally - nice!). Things increase in value, and have since the beginning of time. Its just DD.

Middlemen (auction houses) are for suckers OR, for people with collections over 6 figures, or generally in that area and/or also for lazy people who don't want to deal with the selling aspect of it.

Or for those who live in states where private wine sales are illegal.

Regarding the storage issue: lack of temperature fluctuation is more important than the temperature value. Your wine wouldn't be damaged by being kept at a constant 60 degrees vs. a constant 55-57. It might mature a tad faster.

-Paul W.

From a drinkers standpoint I wouldn't worry a lot about low 60s with light gradual shifts for a year at all. But I'm curious about your temp assumptions. Have you actually measured fluctuations? A 3 degree range from 54-57 would be almost perfect for Philadelphia, where the average 10 foot below grade temps are 55. So you must have a very deep basement that is isolated from furnace and any heated rooms. Is your friend's home in Philly or Raleigh (where ground temp is 62)? My experience is that people underestimate swings. I have a fairly deep (6-7 feet below grade) basement in NYC area. Basement has slow swing from about 48-68 (at eye level) between summer and winter. My cellar (insulated room in deepest part and away from furnace) ends up making almost same swing, but with no daily fluctuations, except I turn on an AC when it's a late summer heat wave. I think you maybe underestimating swings in average basement.,

Private wine sales can be risky
http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2014/0 ... operation/

I keep some wine stored in may parent's basement, which is about six feet below grade at floor level. It is a finished basement with heat/AC. The wine is kept in a closed room with the heat/cooling vents shut pretty much year round and insulation (styrofoam) covering the very small window. The room has a northwestern exposure with the window facing north.

When I last checked, the temperature in the room varied from about 55 F to 67 F over the course of a year. I thought that was pretty reasonable for storage of my overflow wines that I plan to drink in the next five years or so. The temperature swings are quite slow with not much more than a two degree change over a 24 hour period.

The only risk is my non-wine geek parents and their friends dipping into a bottle now and then - "Hope you don't mind that we drank a couple bottles of that 'Moo-town Roths-childs' red wine... oh, and a bottle of the 'Chevy-liar Montrochee' white stuff with Betty and Ralph last Thursday."

Were that I had enough wines that good to worry about storing somewhere.

All storage and investment aside, my main question here is the temp fluctuation. Is moving it from 55 to low 60's for a year or 2, and then moving BACK to 55 degrees for the long haul bad for the wine? Thats what I'm looking for. Even if I don't do, I still would like the knowledge.

It'll be fine. I bet no one would be able to tell the difference, and if they could they might prefer wine that had changed temperature.