Skin Contact White Descriptors...(long/pedantic/boring)

First let's clear up some nomenclature:

Skin-contact whites: These are white wines made like red wines. The skins are left in contact w/ the fermenting grapes/must. The contact can extend from just a few days to throughout the length of fermentation. And then beyond fermentation if the winemaker chooses to do such, before the wine is pressed off the skins. The wines often display a golden/burnished bronze/copper, sometimes brownish color. If the grapes are "gris" grapes (grapes that have a slight pigmentation..like GWT or Pinot Gris/Grigio), they can have a slight pinkish/redish cast...depending on how late the grapes were harvested and the amount of the grapes anthocyanin content. After the wine is pressed off the skins, they can be aged further in tanks/barrels in the absence of oxygen. That is, made in a reductive manner. Or they can be left w/ exposure to air. That is, made in an oxidative manner. These oxidative wines have more of a brownish color to them.
If the wines are given only a brief skin contact, they usually display the grapes customary varietal character, with some additional nuances from the skin contact. If the wines are given extended skin contact, I find it (usually) destroys any (recognizable) varietal character, and replaces it with a distinctive character that transcends everything, irrelevant to what grape vaariety was used. That is, extended skin contact SauvBlanc/PinotGrigio/RibollaGialla all have a distinct aroma that makes them smell pretty much the same to me.
Orange Wines: This is a genre of wines that I find is not well-defined. Many people use it to describe any of the above defined skin-contact white/gris wines. Many people use it to define any wine that has an "orange" color. Oftentimes, people use it to describe wines both made in an oxidative and a reductive style.
Originally, it entered the lexicon to describe the wines made by retro-winemaking techniques as done in Georgia and Slovenia and Friuli, by the likes of JoskoGravner and Radikon. Most of those wines were made as skin-contact whites in an oxidative manner...and had more of a brownish cast. They were made by dumping white/gris grapes in large amphorae (qvervi) buried in the ground, loosely covered with ample oxygen access, oftentimes for yrs. This is the context in which I prefer to use the term "orange" wines. So, when someone says "orange" wine, I have to delve a bit deeper to find out exactly what they mean.
Phenol/Phenolic: Technically, phenol (carbolic acid) is a benzene ring with a hydroxl group (OH) sticking off one corner of the benzene ring. It is a slightly volatile organic compound. I have never in my life smelled phenol..got no idea what it smells like. There are a whole class of compounds in wines known as phenolics or polyphenolics. I believe anthocyanins (the coloring material in wines) are included in that grouping, but I'm not sure. They are present primarily in the skins of the grapes as I understand it. They are most predominant in red wines, which always have some skin contact. As more and more white/gris/orange wines are being made w/ skin contact, these wines display much more of a phenolic load than conventional (crush & press) white wines.

Whew....bear in mind that I am not a chemist. I only play one on "Keeping Up With The Kardashians". But that's sorta my understanding of the chemistry.

So...last night in my tasting we had 5 skin-contact PinotGris wines. They all had this common aroma to them that you find in extended skin-contact whites. It smells a bit like slightly fermented apple cider. I used the term "phenolic" to describe this smell they all had, to varying degrees. The chemists in the group severely upbraided me for using the term "phenolic", that I didn't know what I was talking about. They are, of course, right. That's what I like about my LosAlamos tasting group...you can't "baffle 'em w/ bull$hit".

So....my question: What is it that I'm smelling in these extended skin-contact white/gris wines that I'm calling "phenolic"?. Anybody who's had much experience w/ skin-contact whites knows exactly what I'm referring to. What the heck is that smell???

Help me out here, FloridaJim. You're my hero when it comes to skin-contact whites.

Tom

Tom:

Do you exactly what the chemists objected to when you used the word "phenolic" to describe the aroma?

Wine certainly is a complex chemical soup that includes phenols.

Tom:

Do you (know?) exactly what the chemists objected to when you used the word "phenolic" to describe the aroma?
Wine certainly is a complex chemical soup that includes phenols.

Mostly, they objected to not knowing what I meant when I used the descriptor "phenolic". Neither of them had ever
smelled phenol (carbolic acid) and I seriously doubt the smell of phenol resembles at all what I'm smelling
in those wines. But they recognized exactly what it was we were smelling across those 5 wines...they just couldn't
come up with a descriptor. That's what I'm searching for w/ my question.
Tom

Mostly, they objected to not knowing what I meant when I used the descriptor "phenolic". Neither of them had ever
smelled phenol (carbolic acid) and I seriously doubt the smell of phenol resembles at all what I'm smelling
in those wines. But they recognized exactly what it was we were smelling across those 5 wines...they just couldn't
come up with a descriptor. That's what I'm searching for w/ my question.
Tom

I've smelled wines that reminded me of a smell like naphthalene, which I associate with the phenolic aroma of benzene. It's the stuff of mothballs.

A few perfumes that some women seem to bathe in before getting on the NYCity subway provide the same aroma, but in that enclosed space down under the smell can be sickening.

OK, this chemist will weigh in on the subject of the smell of phenol. Tom, you almost certainly DO know the smell: it's the smell of Chloraseptic cough drops, etc. It's closely related to the smell of Band-Aids, which is the smell of meta-cresol (3-methylphenol), a close relative of phenol. Bretty aromas can be called "phenolic" since 4-ethylphenol is one of the primary constituents thereof.

Thanks for the treatise on skin-contact and orange wines, too.

Mark Lipton

OK, this chemist will weigh in on the subject of the smell of phenol. Tom, you almost certainly DO know the smell: it's the smell of Chloraseptic cough drops, etc. It's closely related to the smell of Band-Aids, which is the smell of meta-cresol (3-methylphenol), a close relative of phenol. Bretty aromas can be called "phenolic" since 4-ethylphenol is one of the primary constituents thereof.

Thanks for the treatise on skin-contact and orange wines, too.

Mark Lipton

Mark:

Do you think those "bretty" aromas in white wines might come from the skin contact?

I made a 2012 Pinot Gris with very little skin contact. I ran the grapes through the crusher/destemmer and pressed it out about 4 hours later. The wine has a copper colored hue and a very slight, but noticeable aroma of acetone (nail polish remover). A few wine geek friends did not find it objectionable and I kind of like it. I'm not sure what phenolic means.

OK, this chemist will weigh in on the subject of the smell of phenol. Tom, you almost certainly DO know the smell: it's the smell of Chloraseptic cough drops, etc. It's closely related to the smell of Band-Aids, which is the smell of meta-cresol (3-methylphenol), a close relative of phenol. Bretty aromas can be called "phenolic" since 4-ethylphenol is one of the primary constituents thereof.
Thanks for the treatise on skin-contact and orange wines, too.
Mark Lipton

Thanks, Mark.....I was hoping you might have some insight here.
I'll buy some Chloraseptics and report back here.
I can hardly wait to use it in my next tasting note..."Gobs of hedonistic Cloraseptics". It'll raise the bar for WLDG TN's!!!
Tom

Mark:

Do you think those "bretty" aromas in white wines might come from the skin contact?

Doubtful, Thomas. (I'll avoid the allusion suggested by that comment) The polyphenolics contained in skins are not easily converted back to phenolics (the polymerization involves the formation of bonds that can't be cleaved). Even hydrolyzable tannins can't be degraded to anything with a smell (epigallic acid and glucose are odorless). AFAIK, small molecule phenolics aren't found in skins, but you may know differently.

Mark Lipton

Mark:

Do you think those "bretty" aromas in white wines might come from the skin contact?

I'm pretty sensitive to Brett and I can't recall Brett aromas in any skin-contact white I have tasted. Any examples?
Best, Jim

Couple of years ago or so I attended a tasting in NY that Levi Dalton put on of 20-30 orange wines and there were descriptions galore of the noses but nothing about brett.

Couple of years ago or so I attended a tasting in NY that Levi Dalton put on of 20-30 orange wines and there were descriptions galore of the noses but nothing about brett.

Maybe I'm not as sensitive to Brett as I thought.
Best, Jim

Doubtful, Thomas. (I'll avoid the allusion suggested by that comment) The polyphenolics contained in skins are not easily converted back to phenolics (the polymerization involves the formation of bonds that can't be cleaved). Even hydrolyzable tannins can't be degraded to anything with a smell (epigallic acid and glucose are odorless). AFAIK, small molecule phenolics aren't found in skins, but you may know differently.

Mark Lipton

No, I don't have anything to add. I was wondering. I, too, have not smelled Brett in skin contact whites. I smell oxidation often (especially in the orange wines, where I also smell volatility) and I smell petroleum-like aromas--or that cheap perfume smell--in the other whites that had skin contact but are of what I consider to be the correct color for white wine, other than orange.

No, I don't have anything to add. I was wondering. I, too, have not smelled Brett in skin contact whites. I smell oxidation often (especially in the orange wines, where I also smell volatility) and I smell petroleum-like aromas--or that cheap perfume smell--in the other whites that had skin contact but are of what I consider to be the correct color for white wine, other than orange.

The connection that I can see is that if you're aging your wine in an amphora buried in the ground for a few years, hygienic standards might not be as rigid as they are in an actual winery?

Just a thought...
Mark Lipton

Took this one for Mark:
One chemist (on WLDG) suggested what I was smelling in these skin-contact whites was what I would find in Cloraseptic.
Jeez..what I won't do for science...or as it's done at LosAlamos...SCIENCE.
Finally was able to find a squirt btl/atomizer of Cloraseptic. Most all the ones I saw were berry-flavored. That rendition of Cloraseptic is suspect. Finally found one that was honey-flavored. Cracked that sucker open in the CVS parking lot. EEEEEE...yew. Stinkin' stuff. Has a very volatile smell to it.
It's 1.5% phenol. No menthol is this version.
Alas...asuming it's the smell of phenol..it doesn't smell like the "phenolic" smell I'm trying to pin down. It does smell vaguely of Band-Aids (the cloth kind..very rare anymore).
But not of orange wine...so I wasn't tempted to chug the whole friggin' btl.
Tom

I vaguely recall smelling Phenol in my Uni days. It was not a nice experience. The organic chemistry class I was in went out of their way to not smell Phenol, as there was a rumour that it caused infertility in males. Looking at the Wikipedia article the side effects seem more serious than this - seizures, coma, liver and kidney disease to mention a few. No infertility.

If I am ever tempted to use "phenol/phenolics" in future in a TN I think I will desist. Unless the wine is really bad.

Took this one for Mark:
One chemist (on WLDG) suggested what I was smelling in these skin-contact whites was what I would find in Cloraseptic.
Jeez..what I won't do for science...or as it's done at LosAlamos...SCIENCE.

Wow, wine board immortality for me. Thanks, Tom! Yeah, that smell was almost certainly the phenol -- it's quite distinctive. And, no, I'm not in the least bit surprised that it doesn't match with what you were getting from those skin-contact whites. I've got a couple in the cellar, including one from FLJim and another from Donkey and Goat, so I'll ponder what I get in the noses of those when I at last open them.

Mark Lipton

(not the least bit averse to using "terpene" in tasting notes for those pine resin-like smells)

Why use the descriptor “phenolic” to describe an aroma “a bit like fermented apple cider”? The term ‘”apple” itself is a common descriptor for a white wine. I usually link it to malic acid (this is just one thing grapes and apples have in common) and MLF (malolactic fermentation). As far as your descriptor “a bit like fermented apple cider” (I would just stick with that), it could be the result of an MLF that went a little off course for some reason or another. (I’m not suggesting that the “extended” skin contact and the extraction (concentration of phenols) did not possible help contribute to the formation of your aroma described as “a bit like fermented apple cider”).

Salute

I vaguely recall smelling Phenol in my Uni days. It was not a nice experience. The organic chemistry class I was in went out of their way to not smell Phenol, as there was a rumour that it caused infertility in males. Looking at the Wikipedia article the side effects seem more serious than this - seizures, coma, liver and kidney disease to mention a few. No infertility.

If I am ever tempted to use "phenol/phenolics" in future in a TN I think I will desist. Unless the wine is really bad.

Neil, I use phenolic often. I find it more of a mouthfeel than a taste. I could never use 'phenol' as I remember the phenol gargle we had to have when we had a sore throats when we were young. We had to gargle then spit. But I do remember also the mouthfeel it left behind. Never associated the taste of phenol with the phenolic mouthfeel before.

In one of the Michigan wine tasting notes I wrote 'apple skin phenolics' and I don't see any reason to change that.

This posting by Tom has made me think. So I hunted for this article written by Neil NcCallum of Dry River Winery in NZ (one of the icon wineries here). Neil is a chemist and this article gives his views on phenolics. I remember several times discussing the concept of phenolics with him and while this article linked is written about pinot noir, it definitely applies to his pinot gris and riesling.

It's more than what you may think.

Structure and Longevity in Pinot Noir
http://www.dryriver.co.nz/Jottings-Arti ... 20noir.htm

This posting by Tom has made me think. So I hunted for this article written by Neil NcCallum of Dry River Winery in NZ (one of the icon wineries here). Neil is a chemist and this article gives his views on phenolics. I remember several times discussing the concept of phenolics with him and while this article linked is written about pinot noir, it definitely applies to his pinot gris and riesling.

It's more than what you may think.

Structure and Longevity in Pinot Noir
http://www.dryriver.co.nz/Jottings-Arti ... 20noir.htm

Thanks for the URL, Sue.
Best, Jim

Thanks for the URL, Sue.
Best, Jim

You're welcome Jim, BTW, in an off-topic fashion, we tasted your Rosé the other day.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=48701
My notes and comments further down the thread.

I vaguely recall smelling Phenol in my Uni days. It was not a nice experience. The organic chemistry class I was in went out of their way to not smell Phenol, as there was a rumour that it caused infertility in males. Looking at the Wikipedia article the side effects seem more serious than this - seizures, coma, liver and kidney disease to mention a few. No infertility.

If I am ever tempted to use "phenol/phenolics" in future in a TN I think I will desist. Unless the wine is really bad.

"...seizures, coma, liver and kidney disease to mention a few/"

I'd say that one or more of those might lead to forced infertility, wouldn't you?

This posting by Tom has made me think. So I hunted for this article written by Neil NcCallum of Dry River Winery in NZ (one of the icon wineries here). Neil is a chemist and this article gives his views on phenolics. I remember several times discussing the concept of phenolics with him and while this article linked is written about pinot noir, it definitely applies to his pinot gris and riesling.

It's more than what you may think.

Structure and Longevity in Pinot Noir
http://www.dryriver.co.nz/Jottings-Arti ... 20noir.htm

Thanks for that link, Sue. Informative.

Unfortunately, for Tom Hill, there's nothing in it regarding aroma/phenolics.

I maintain that the "apple cider" aroma that Tom describes is a reflection of a wine's slide toward degradation.