Marketing Eastern Grapes - 1920

Liz's paternal grandfather worked at the US Dept of Agriculture. Just today, she found a white paper he wrote in September, 1920 entitled "Marketing Eastern Grapes". For those interested, it can be found at: http://archive.org/details/marketingeastern861alle It's long and I haven't finished it yet but it's kinda cool to read it.

Fascinating. Good review of the Delaware grape, one I've always liked.

Jon:

Thanks for posting this. I am in the midst of writing a book and this information fits right into the subject matter.

Jon:

Thanks for posting this. I am in the midst of writing a book and this information fits right into the subject matter.

Wow, that is cool, Thomas. I trust you'll give Dudley credit as necessary.

Jon:

Thanks for posting this. I am in the midst of writing a book and this information fits right into the subject matter.

Wow, that is cool, Thomas. I trust you'll give Dudley credit as necessary.

Jon,

Even if I wanted to, I couldn't get away with not giving credit--either in the text or in a bibliography. It's what writers must do, unless they write on the Internet; there, even the big names steal

Fascinating indeed, Jon. Thanks for posting this. It’s amazing how times have changed. In today’s day and age of the “large” supermarket chains the term “in season” doesn’t seem to apply.

Salute

A real gem. I found especially interesting the comments about particular grapes. Dutchess, which can make a fine wine, is said to have been in decline at the time. Although it did survive the 20th century, it is becoming harder and harder to find now. Some producers believe it is on its way out. On the other hand, Vergennes, thought dead and buried long ago, is making a comeback of sorts at Arbor Hill so the epitaph for Dutchess might be postponed a while. My father-in-law made a variety of Labruscas and thought Delaware was the best of them. Alleman sings its praises, comparing it favorably even to the viniferas. "The Delaware is the standard of quality among the Eastern grapes. There is no variety even of the vinifera type of richer or more delicious flavor or with more agreeable bouquet than the Delaware" (p. 7).

A real gem. I found especially interesting the comments about particular grapes. Dutchess, which can make a fine wine, is said to have been in decline at the time. Although it did survive the 20th century, it is becoming harder and harder to find now. Some producers believe it is on its way out. On the other hand, Vergennes, thought dead and buried long ago, is making a comeback of sorts at Arbor Hill so the epitaph for Dutchess might be postponed a while. My father-in-law made a variety of Labruscas and thought Delaware was the best of them. Alleman sings its praises, comparing it favorably even to the viniferas. "The Delaware is the standard of quality among the Eastern grapes. There is no variety even of the vinifera type of richer or more delicious flavor or with more agreeable bouquet than the Delaware" (p. 7).

Dan,

Technically, I believe Delaware is considered a hybrid, with vinifera in its bloodline. Many of the varieties referred to as "labrusca" have proven to be hybrids, with vinifera in them.

On subject: few of the so-called native grapes appeal to me as wine. Delaware and Diamond are the exceptions. Delaware puts forth some truly pleasant wines.

I was following Allenman 's terminology Thomas, but you are correct as usual. The early plantings of vinifera got into the labruscas. Do pure labruscas exist anywhere these days? The Delawares et al. might better be called Natives. And what about all the vinifera growing in the Finger Lakes these days? Isn't it likely that they have picked up a bit of Labrusca along the way? Egad! What has become of purity?

what about all the vinifera growing in the Finger Lakes these days? Isn't it likely that they have picked up a bit of Labrusca along the way?

No, not even remotely likely. Vines are propagated as cuttings.

Do pure labruscas exist anywhere these days?

Munson listed 20 pure Labrusca and 32 Labrusca -Vinifera, Labrusca-Other and Labrusca -Vinifera-Other hybrids in his 1909 Foundations book.

But Concord is shown as one of the pure which later research suggests is a hybrid with vinifera, and many of the others are seedlings of Concord and of the rest, but one appear in Robinson's Wine Grapes - Ives.

Wine Grapes suggests Ives is a hybrid, but has no evidence. Munson is certain - "its every character is pure Labrusca" but goes on to say "a coarse harsh wine can be made from it by using so much sugar and water to reduce the excess of acid - stuff unfit for any stomach".

Of Labrusca generally, Munson says all but 8 varieties be destroyed and those eight used to breed new hybrids as the species has too many weaknesses as a grape producer and as a grape to make it worthwhile for growing for wine.

Yes, I believe the technical terms and species names should be left to the academics and to industry. We regulars should call them "native Americans," mainly because this is where they got there start, even though they "intermarried" with Europeans.

I'm in need of some educating Peter. If a cultivar such as Delaware is actually a hybrid, the product of some native American Labrusca open pollinated by imported Vinifera, why couldn't the reverse be true whereby Vinifera were open pollinated by native Labrusca?

I'm in need of some educating Peter. If a cultivar such as Delaware is actually a hybrid, the product of some native American Labrusca open pollinated by imported Vinifera, why couldn't the reverse be true whereby Vinifera were open pollinated by native Labrusca?

I'm not Peter and I could be wrong, because I am not a plant expert either. Creating an interspecific species through open pollination is rare but I believe what you pose is not impossible.

I think vine distance is critical to open pollination and since cultivated grapevines are self pollinating, and vines don't all flower at the same exact time, it's quite difficult for one specie to make its way into another through pollination.

Again, I could be wrong, but on the Internet does that ever matter?

notice that norton is listed as a green grape distinct fron cynthiana , a black grape.

I'm in need of some educating Peter. If a cultivar such as Delaware is actually a hybrid, the product of some native American Labrusca open pollinated by imported Vinifera, why couldn't the reverse be true whereby Vinifera were open pollinated by native Labrusca?

Yes, the reverse is definitely true. Let's say vinifera Chardonnay is growing in Finger Lakes (as per the earlier question) next to a row of Labrusca - and the Chardonnay is pollinated by the Lambrusca. All that happens is that the seeds in the Chardonnay grapes contain DNA of both the Chardonnay mother and the Labrusca father.

The status - the DNA - of the Chardonnay vine itself or its grapes are not altered or affected by having its grapes fertilised. (Any more than a human mother's biology is changed by the man who fathers her children).

If the seeds of that grape were planted the resulting vine would be a new unique variety - in this case a hybrid since the parents are of two different species.

The earlier question asked what about all the vinifera growing in the Finger Lakes (FL) these days? Isn't it likely that they have picked up a bit of Labrusca along the way

The answer is no because the Chardonnay in FL, like all the Chardonnay planted anywhere in the world, is propagated by means of cuttings and each of those cuttings came from another Chardonnay plant that originated as a cutting and so one all the way back in time (500+ years) to the original one single vine growing in Burgundy, probably near the village named Chardonnay.

And that first and only Chardonnay came about because a seed (grape pip) from a GOAUIS grape which had been fertilised by a PINOT vine grew and was selected for propagation.

Thus all Chardonnay -- like every other grape variety - is a clone of that original plant propagated by cuttings and effectively identical to the original.

If you plant the seed of a Chardonnay grape you will not get a Chardonnay vine, instead you will have a new unique variety. If you plant four seeds from one single grape you will get four similar but different and unique varieties.

We don't know with DELAWARE whether the father or the mother was vinifera or labrusca, or indeed anything concrete about its parentage. It is assumed that it has vinifera in its parentage for two reasons - one it is thought it was deliberately bred by a Swiss man called Mallet-Prevost who brought vinifera with him from Europe and crossed them with unknown American vines, the other is the vine roots susceptibility to phylloxera. But some think because it shows no vinifera characteristics that it has no vinifera in it. No DNA analysis has been done.


Notes: Info about Delaware from Robinsons 'Wine Grapes' book, assumed to most up to date.
Info about grape propagation from my own studies, interviews with a Professor of Viticulture and time spent at a commercial grape vine nursery while researching my Pinotage book.

notice that norton is listed as a green grape distinct fron cynthiana , a black grape.

That might be a editing mistake, since Munson in 1909 shows Cynthiana as a synonym for Norton which has black grapes.

It might be the Norton was misclassified, which was very commonly done when the only way to identify vines was to compare leaves, grapes flowering/fruiting times etc. Also grape growers of the time would propagate by means of seeds, i.e. if I wanted to plant Norton a breeder would send me the seeds of a Norton which I'd plant and call Norton though that plant is no longer that same thing.

Or it might be a local mutation in the same way that PINOT variously has black, pink, grey and white grapes.

The reason the American hybrids developed in the field (the ones that did so on their own) is from seeds falling on the ground.

Because wild vines are (were) not hermaphroditic, it was originally quite rare to grow a consistent grape crop for lack of consistent pollination. The theory is that some smart Mesopotamian farmer realized that a few vines were consistent; they likely were anomaly vines that could self-pollinate, and so there began cultivation. As soon as cultivation began, hybridizing became more easily possible and the thousands of grape varieties to come got their start.

Like Peter says, hybridizing ultimately creates a new DNA pool and for control, you cannot use seeds for propagation--because you never know what you are going to get.

I'm so glad I posted a link this paper and that so much is still worthy of comment. Everything I've read as I follow the thread is value-added!

Thomas wrote
The reason the American hybrids developed in the field (the ones that did so on their own) is from seeds falling on the ground.

Or by a berry that was eaten by a bird and transported somewhere else. This applies not only to hybrids but also the crosses (between cultivars of the same species) that came about naturally or on their own. The hybrid or cross formula for these cultivars that occurred naturally do not necessarily identify the “father” (pollen donor) or “mother” (egg donor) but just gives us the parentage or pedigree of the resulting cultivars.

Salute

Thomas wrote
The reason the American hybrids developed in the field (the ones that did so on their own) is from seeds falling on the ground.

Or by a berry that was eaten by a bird and transported somewhere else. This applies not only to hybrids but also the crosses (between cultivars of the same species) that came about naturally or on their own. The hybrid or cross formula for these cultivars that occurred naturally do not necessarily identify the “father” (pollen donor) or “mother” (egg donor) but just gives us the parentage or pedigree of the resulting cultivars.

Salute

Victor:

I have many of those birds around my place, and they like to aim at the car...ever see recycled catawba?

Sorry Peter, should of read your post more closely

Peter wrote
The earlier question asked what about all the vinifera growing in the Finger Lakes (FL) these days? Isn't it likely that they have picked up a bit of Labrusca along the way

The answer is no because the Chardonnay in FL, like all the Chardonnay planted anywhere in the world, is propagated by means of cuttings and each of those cuttings came from another Chardonnay plant that originated as a cutting and so one all the way back in time (500+ years) to the original one single vine growing in Burgundy, probably near the village named Chardonnay.

Definitely agree with this. Most commercial vineyards are developed using vegetative propogation. But in an era when "Gentlemen farming" and "experimentation" was much more common things were much different. With “long term” cultivation of Chardonnay in the Finger Lakes (or any region for that matter) it is very possible that a “distinctive” Finger Lake’s clone of Chardonnay might just be “discovered” someday and become “significant” enough to warrant more than just a number and be issued a “name”. (Even though they would be genetically identical. The “personality” of the vine is dictated by the microclimate and geographical aspects (terrior if you will). The “personality” of the wine is dictated by the quality of the fruit at harvest, how the vines are grown and cared for and winemaking techniques used to produce it. That's why all this "confusion" arose in the first place).

Salute

With “long term” cultivation of Chardonnay in the Finger Lakes (or any region for that matter) it is very possible that a “distinctive” Finger Lake’s clone of Chardonnay might just be “discovered” someday and become “significant” enough to warrant more than just a number and be issued a “name”.

That is true but it won't be the affect because it has bred with lambrusca, which is the question I was trying to answer

Most commercial vineyards are developed using vegetative propogation.

Most? I'm intrigued! Tell us more about commercial vineyards that don't...

With “long term” cultivation of Chardonnay in the Finger Lakes (or any region for that matter) it is very possible that a “distinctive” Finger Lake’s clone of Chardonnay might just be “discovered” someday and become “significant” enough to warrant more than just a number and be issued a “name”.

That is true but it won't be the affect because it has bred with lambrusca, which is the question I was trying to answer

They may not be distinctive Finger Lakes clones, but that Konstantin Frank made Riesling and Chardonnay commercially viable fifty-five years ago in the Finger Lakes had much to do with his insistence that proper clonal selection was the key to success. He worked hard on that end of his nursery.