Good rant on "collectors" from W. Blake Gray

[Robin Garr]

From the Gray Report:

Wine collectors are the scourge of wine lovers

I had a very similar reaction when I read the Barron's report and I think Mr. Ryder is the problem.

Ah, robin...you commie, you. don't you understand...EVERYTHING is financialized. EVERYTHING is judged only by the market value assigned by the 1%! The Market is ALL, PBIN!

Somebody is po'd that the Chinese are outbidding him for the Bordeaux first growths. Price is no obstacle until it reaches the level where it is an obstacle.

I found it funny that the Ryder piece mentions baseball cards. What a great example of how collecting can raise and lower an industry. When baseball cards where at their peak in the late 80's/early 90's the result was new companies bringing product to market and old companies making both their standard card as well as premium cards. It was the prices and demand for the premium products that allowed for the nicer cards and justified new companies like Upper Deck. After the collecting boom passed, A number of the companies went under.

Wine is obviously not baseball cards but I think there are similarities. Many of the wineries started in the past decade (or two), I assume would not have been started if not for the price increases commanded by the top of the market. Look at wines with no track record being offered for $80-$120/btl. I don't believe that most of those wineries would exist if they did not think they could charge those prices. Collectors driving up the prices at the top, result in wines farther down the chain to creep up also albeit at a lower rate. Eventually, it starts to look like one can actually make money from a winery and it sure looks like a great life so more do it. Look at the increase in the number of wineries in any region of the US over the past 10-20 years compared to the period prior. I see no other reason than the way wine prices have risen and part of that is obviously based on the activities of collectors. If collecting was at the same levels as back in the 1970's we may still be able to afford the occasional Latour but I believe we would also have less variety in the market.

"Collector"? Really?

I mean, I consider myself a Bordeaux "collector". But I've never sold any wine and probably won't. I collect it to drink.

Collectors have passion about what they collect. They love it. They care about it.

I think this guy is more of a "speculator".

......Many of the wineries started in the past decade (or two), I assume would not have been started if not for the price increases commanded by the top of the market. Look at wines with no track record being offered for $80-$120/btl. I don't believe that most of those wineries would exist if they did not think they could charge those prices. Collectors driving up the prices at the top, result in wines farther down the chain to creep up also albeit at a lower rate. Eventually, it starts to look like one can actually make money from a winery and it sure looks like a great life so more do it. Look at the increase in the number of wineries in any region of the US over the past 10-20 years compared to the period prior. I see no other reason than the way wine prices have risen and part of that is obviously based on the activities of collectors. If collecting was at the same levels as back in the 1970's we may still be able to afford the occasional Latour but I believe we would also have less variety in the market.

Excellent point. Many of the local wineries that have opened in the past 10-15 years exist because they can sell wines for $15-$25 or more instead of $4-$7. In 1982 I did a feasibility study on opening a local winery as an independent study in college. The wines, made from hybrids, would have to sell for around $4 per bottle to break even. What's interesting is that the rise in wine prices has not trickled down to the grape growers as grape prices have almost remained constant. Local Riesling is selling for $1,500 per ton this year and hybrids sell for $400-$800 per ton - about the same as 30 years ago.

I know a guy in Northern Indiana who has a huge collection of older California Cabs from Heitz, Ridge, Caymus, Dunn, etc. far in excess of what he will be able to drink in his life time. He even pays quite a bit to have it stored. Some years ago he approached me about purchasing or trading for some of the wine. We discussed the details and agreed on a fair offer. Though he would not even have missed the small number of wines that I was going to buy, the thought of parting with them caused him so much emotional upset that he couldn't do it.

Some people have a strong emotional connection to their collections. I agree with Matt, the guy in the article is a speculator.

I know a guy in Northern Indiana who has a huge collection of older California Cabs from Heitz, Ridge, Caymus, Dunn, etc. far in excess of what he will be able to drink in his life time.

That's no way to talk about me, Sam! On the subject of collecting wine, it seems to me that there are two strains. I agree with you all that Ryder sounds more like a speculator than a true collector, someone who views wine as a commodity more than an item of pleasure. He and his ilk are truly detestable. The second strain of collector fetishizes wine and collects it merely for the sake of possession. Wine is almost unique among "collectibles" in that it's a consumable with a finite lifetime. In that sense, it's quite different from coins, books, stamps, artwork or antiques. As Bill S can attest to, it bears a bit more resemblance to the collection of vintage cars or orchids, both of which have finite lifetimes. Parker has written about some of these collectors (in none too flattering language), people with 10,000 bottle cellars and no real appreciation for their contents. I view those sort with more pity than contempt.

Mark Lipton
(who collects books and records and drinks wine)

I mean, I consider myself a Bordeaux "collector". But I've never sold any wine and probably won't. I collect it to drink.
Collectors have passion about what they collect. They love it. They care about it.

Matt nailed it for me (though I'm less limited to Bdx).
While there are speculators like Ryder (who seems a bit of a tool), and people who collect as a fetish &/or obsession unrelated to the wine inside, I consider myself a collector, and am unfazed about Blake Grey's disapproval (or Mark's pity).
While I buy wine only with the intent to drink, as I have a couple thousand bottles I gotta admit I collect. More than that, I will buy to fill gaps in my collection, the sure sign of the collector. If I was purely a drinker, I'd only have 86 or 89 Meyney, as I decided quite a while ago they were my favorite 2 vintages. But as I have some of each of those left, I'd currently be more likely to buy an 82 or 85 than more of the 86 or 89. The pure drinker would rather have more of his favorite, I'd rather round out my collection (and drink em!).
As to value, I have never sold/traded wine except in cases where a friend needed something for a tasting (and then I usually just trade). I do split purchases on occasion, but always at cost. But that doesn't mean I don't consider possibility of appreciation when making purchases. While guaranteeing provenance of new releases is my primary goal, at least with larger release items like Bordeaux if I don't think it's likely to appreciate more than my acquisition & holding costs, I'd be a fool to buy early rather than just wait and buy when I'm ready to drink.
Plus, while I fully intend to drink all of my wine, there is always the possibility of early death (or illness that precludes drinking). So appreciation is appreciated, as it might be part of Betsy's retirement.

I'd add that I think Gray's "I think Rudy K is great" is full of s#$^. I don't buy stratospheric wines, but if I decided for my 60th birthday to splurge on a 1960 Unico, I'd like to know it's real. I do know a few guys who sometimes buy "trophy" level wines- and drink them. I'd personally rather share a glass (whether of Pepiere Muscadet or Cheval Blanc) with those guys than Gray (or Ryder) any day.

While there are speculators like Ryder (who seems a bit of a tool), and people who collect as a fetish &/or obsession unrelated to the wine inside, I consider myself a collector, and am unfazed about Blake Grey's disapproval (or Mark's pity).

The man doth protest too much, methinks. Sorry, Dale, but I can't fit you into the category of true "collector" because you make the cardinal error of drinking some of your collection. A true collector, prizing the collection above the enjoyment of consumption, would never open a cherished bottle under any circumstances lest he break that vertical (or horizontal). I remember in a long-ago issue of the WA Parker relating a story of visiting a reader who had a 10-20,000 bottle collection in a custom-designed, temperature-controlled cellar. With dinner, his host brought up a ca. 10-year old bottle of Beaujolais Nouveau. Now THAT guy is a collector! Parker chose to view him as terminally clueless about wine, but I think that he just couldn't bear to part with any of his precious collection and so opened the one bottle he could part with. You can only aspire to such heights of covetousness and obsession, Dale!

Mark Lipton

[Robin Garr]

I'd add that I think Gray's "I think Rudy K is great" is full of s#$^.

In fairness, though, that's not quite what Blake said. Less so still if you click through the Rudy K piece, which begins by saying he believes Rudy should go to jail.

I read it, and he calls Rudy a hero several times, and says he cheered for him. My personal ire is raised by the sentence "There are no victims in Kurniawan's crimes who don't deserve a comeuppance."
I'm sure there are plenty of jerks among Rudy's victims. But the smug assertion that everyone who purchased a fake bottle deserves a "comeuppance"? Asshole.

Mark,
You're applying your special definition of collector. I know dozens (if not hundreds) of people who describe themselves as collectors, very few (like 2) of my personal acquaintances hesitates to share.

Mark,
You're applying your special definition of collector. I know dozens (if not hundreds) of people who describe themselves as collectors, very few (like 2) of my personal acquaintances hesitates to share.

Ah, Dale, you're taking me way too seriously, old thing. You are free to call and consider yourself a collector, though I hasten to add that you represent the apotheosis of the species as you are anything but covetous and fetishistic in your collecting (which, after all, was your point).

A votre santé!
Mark Lipton

Mark, it's the raison d'etre of wine boards to take these things too seriously!

I just found Gray's column (and the linked Rudy column) irritating. Sure, there are plenty of jerks/posers/a##holes among wine collectors (as the term is commonly used), plus there are the speculators. But those subcategories don't apply to all- or most, or even in my experience a significant minority. By any normative use of the term "wine collector, " that phrase (in NY alone) would apply to Bob Ross, Diane Kessler, Jay Miller, Jeff Grossman, Jacques Levy, Ramon Cabrera, etc (just to name a few who've posted here- Richman, you moved, stop whining) . None of whom fit Gray's profile of the wine collector- all generous, giving, knowledgable, and passionate about wine.

I've had wines from Bob Ross that were "Rudy caliber"= if he got a hfake was is because he deserved a comeuppance? I doubt any attendees at his jeebus last year thought so.

Even if one limits the term to what auction houses call "major collectors", my limited experience in that group is only of a group of people who truly love wine.
I know one person with 20K+ bottles of total blue chip. He's totally willing to run downstairs and pop a '74 Martha's because someone mentioned it at table. But he also is happy to be wowwed by an old L'd'or or a good Savigny.

Sure, a small but visible percentage of collectors are jerks. But for that matter a small but visibile portion of the "47%" do view themselves as victims and are dependent on government. So Gray is about as accurate as Romney. Pair of a##holes.

I will say that I apologize for my description of Ryder above. I should have clicked through, I relied only on Gray's (crappy) post and its quotes. Actually, he doesn't seem like such a jerk. Should I do my own selective quotes:

The first phase of our deaccession plan came after Hurricane Katrina destroyed so much of our native Louisiana. Darlene and I were heartbroken by the devastation and hardship and decided to do what we could. The plan was to sell some of our wine, especially older Bordeaux, which had become too expensive to drink, and find appropriate ways to give money to help Louisiana. Sotheby's took several thousand bottles from my cellar. They sold for $1.7 million at a rare single-cellar sale in September 2007.

After receiving the initial estimates from Sotheby's for the 2007 auction -- which proved startlingly accurate -- I removed many California Cabernets from the sale, preferring to enjoy them myself at those prices. I believed then and now that well-kept, older California Cabernets from great makers in good vintages are the best wine values in the world.

'68 Beaulieu Vineyards Georges De Latour Private Reserve Cabernet from California, one of the first wines I ever bought in case volume and one of the greatest wines I have ever tasted. As I poured the wine, its perfume filled the room and an almost reverential hush lingered as we tasted a truly fabulous wine that humbled the Lafite. Its ripe, deep chocolate-cherry flavor and satiny finish was simply stunning and memorable. This Californian wine was estimated to sell for only $100 a bottle at the 2007 auction. No surprise: I kept all I had.

I have no regrets. We were wildly successful in meeting our original goal, and we have had a remarkably great time doing it. We have truly great wines that have matured with us, and we drink them with family and friends. Darlene and I are now doing so with frequency, enthusiasm, and not an ounce of guilt. Our children seem ever more interested in sharing meals with us, and we seem to be gaining new friends. That's OK, too.

Do I sell those incredibly, stupidly valuable bottles of Burgundy I began collecting in the mid-'80s, which have only just begun being discovered by the Chinese? Or do I forsake my penurious soul and drink them in nights of food debauchery with my trusty sidekick, Miss Darlene?

Actually sounds like someone it might be fun to break bread with. Anyway, the article (from a financial magazine, for god's sake) seemed to have a focus on pointing out the hazards (storage costs, tax treatment, unpredictable return) of wine speculation.

Good call, Dale. That does indeed paint quite a different picture of Ryder than Mr. Gray paints in his blog. Though I am no fan of anonymous comments to blog posts, most of which as usually not worth the bits they consume, I have to admit that their accusations of bias and class warfare do ring a bit truer once one has a bit more background.

Mark Lipton

On a business trip to France a few years ago I asked a French dining companion why they don't seem to have many aged wines available in their restaurants. His response was - "Wine isn't a decoration."

Regardless of the definition of a "wine collector" I have met very few wine enthusiasts who were not extremely generous with their "collections." People seem to be dying to share a prized bottle with someone who knows the difference between Burgundy and Bordeaux. We once had a bottle of 1990 Cuvee Sir Winston Churchill opened for us just because the owner had never had a guest who knew that it was produced by Pol Roger.

I guess my point is the most non-speculator wine lovers, collectors or not, are very generous with their wines. 'Call me anything, just don't call me late for Gaja.'

[Jenise]

Actually, he doesn't seem like such a jerk.

I didn't think he sounded like a jerk at all. I didn't read him to be arrogant or bragging, as Gray claims. Rather, as you point out in a Financial magazine, he was discussing wine as an investment and detailing his own evolution from collector/speculator (which many of us would have/could have dabbled in had we his resources) to actual enjoyer of what he had remaining--finding wine's true purpose, as it were.

How about partial collector. I have quite a few single bottles of excellent wine in my cellar. I'm always looking for the proper person to share with that last bottle of a particular great wine. I never deem myself worthy to open that bottle just for myself. I do have occasions come along where I do get to share my own prize.
Hoke was passing through town a few months ago and I brought my last 82 Leoville Las Cases to share at dinner. Oh the best laid plans of mice and men can go astray, it was corked. Grown men crying is not a pretty sight so together we howled at the moon.

Lou Kessler:

Hoke was passing through town a few months ago and I brought my last 82 Leoville Las Cases to share at dinner. Oh the best laid plans of mice and men can go astray, it was corked. Grown men crying is not a pretty sight so together we howled at the moon. :evil

:

Lou, did any wolves in the neighborhood respond? That must have been quite the experience. I feel your pain . I have had a number of corked wines lately and it seems to go in cycles. None for months and then three in a month.

"Collector"? Really? I mean, I consider myself a Bordeaux "collector". But I've never sold any wine and probably won't. I collect it to drink. Collectors have passion about what they collect. They love it. They care about it. I think this guy is more of a "speculator".

I quite agree. I bought a lot of '83 Margaux when all the attention was on the '82 Bordeaux in general. I will never sell a wine, but I do get a degree of joy out of knowing that something I bought for $45 and am enjoying with family/friends can now only be bought for several hundreds of dollars, if you can find it.