Oregonian: Orange Wines

Got a head's up from a friend on this article by KatherineCole on Orange Wines:
Oregonian:OrangeWines

I have, of course, followed Orange Wines from the very start....when they started making them in qvervi in Georgia over 8,000 yrs ago. It's been interesting to follow their migration from Georgia to Friuli to the USofA. The wave of the future??? Don't think so...but there are some pretty interesting ones out there.
Katherine raises an interesting point: "At what point does a wine cross over from being interesting to flawed"?? Very good question, I think.
She further states: "Or, most intriguingly, it might smell like vinegar, yogurt or hard cider. In any other style of wine, I'd consider overt fermentation aromas like these to be faults. But in these wines, they aren't."
So this raises a very good issue: For those folks who worship at the altar of double blind tastings...you encounter a wine that reeks of vinegar or apple cider. You immediately downgrade the wine or reject it because it is "flawed". Brrrrkkkkk...wrongo/dongo. It's supposed to smell that way!!!
I have a problem w/ defining orange wines. Katherine defines it as wine made from white (or gris) grapes, with some degree of skin contact, and allowing O2 to access the fermentating wine (made in an oxidative manner). These wines, from the oxidation, do tend to have an orange color. But she acknowledges that orange wines are not necessarily orange in color. So she's defining orange wine as coming from a process, not from the resultant color of the wine.
I was visiting w/ BobbyStuckey/Frasca Thurs night. He, too, defined orange wine as skin-contact, made in an oxidative manner. I guess I'd go along w/ that definition.
But, then, what do you define a wine like Jim's ISA LakeCnty SauvBlanc. Made w/ skin-contact thru fermentation. But in a reductive manner. Not at all orange in color. Is this an orange wine??? I tend to not define it as an orange wine. Whatta bout it, Jim???
At Frasca Thurs night, my wine of choice was the Palmina Subima. A HoneaVnyd TocaiFriulano made w/ extended skin contact. From the color, it didn't appear to be made in an oxidative manner. So I'd not call it an orange wine. When I first tasted it by itself, it was as hard/tannic as could be. But w/ the three dishes I had, the food toned down the tannins and it actually went very well. Stunning meal that night, it was. Followed Frasca from the very start, I did.
Jim's Isa SauvBlanc is an absolutely fascinating wine. The extended skin contact during fermentation absolutely obliterated the LakeCnty SauvBlanc varietal character...or, at least, totally made it unrecognizable in this manifestation. Which, IMHO, is a good thing. What's left is a very/very interesting wine that bears no resemblance to SauvBlanc. For those who worship at the altar of varietal typicity, or at the altar of terroir...for those who worship these false Gods....this is a badly flawed wine. Don't drink it. It's way too good. You might like it and have to change the Gods you worship.
Anyway....sorry to ramble here. Read the friggin' article....it's interesting.
Tom (who will give the definitive definition of "natural" wine in a coming post)

Katherine raises an interesting point: "At what point does a wine cross over from being interesting to flawed"?? Very good question, I think.
She further states: "Or, most intriguingly, it might smell like vinegar, yogurt or hard cider. In any other style of wine, I'd consider overt fermentation aromas like these to be faults. But in these wines, they aren't."

I'm not sure that 'flaw' is a very useful term for wine. It implies an objective purpose than can be easily and reliably measured.

That said, vinegar, yogurt and hard cider flavors sound like pretty bad orange wines. So I'm not sure I agree with her.

I'm not sure that 'flaw' is a very useful term for wine. It implies an objective purpose than can be easily and reliably measured.
That said, vinegar, yogurt and hard cider flavors sound like pretty bad orange wines. So I'm not sure I agree with her.

I don't often get vinegar (as in acetic acid/ethyl acetate) in orange wines, Rahsaan. But I sometimes get acetaldhyde and hard apple cider
character in some of them. Especially the ones that go the limit, like Gravner.
Tom

But I sometimes get acetaldhyde and hard apple cider character in some of them. Especially the ones that go the limit, like Gravner.
Tom

But my point is that those are usually the bad/less successful examples of orange wines. Just like bad/less successful non-orange wines taste that way. I don't know that anyone would claim orange wines are good when they taste that way. (At least anyone with sense). Which seemed to be what she was suggesting.

I get the “skin contact” part, but the O2 “uptake” could be misleading. Yes as noted some refer to “traditional winemaking” as “oxidative winemaking” and “New World winemaking” as “reductive winemaking”. In today’s day and age the O2 “uptake” could be varied (or as winemakers would like to believe “controlled”, at best “regulated”, or at least “minimized” to just the “right” amount).
Could we call a white wine produced by using carbonic maceration (whole berry) alcohol fermentation (or at least a “partial”), definitely involving “skin contact” but a “limited” amount of O2 uptake, an “orange wine”?
In regards to “hard cider” or “yogurt” flavors or aromas depending upon the “techniques” used to produce the “orange wine” these are some flavors/aromas to actually look for.

Salute

I'm not sure that 'flaw' is a very useful term for wine. It implies an objective purpose than can be easily and reliably measured.
That said, vinegar, yogurt and hard cider flavors sound like pretty bad orange wines. So I'm not sure I agree with her.

I don't often get vinegar (as in acetic acid/ethyl acetate) in orange wines, Rahsaan. But I sometimes get acetaldhyde and hard apple cider
character in some of them. Especially the ones that go the limit, like Gravner.
Tom

Hi Tom -

Thank you for the link. I'm with you on the getting the cider notes in some orange wines, including, as you say, the only Gravner I've been able to drink thus far. Vinegar/acetic acid would strike me as a flaw, though.

Yogurt? No clue there, though I've gotten sweetened whipping cream in some Rieslings on occasion - not with any skin contact, though.

Katherine defines [orange wine] as wine made from white (or gris) grapes, with some degree of skin contact, and allowing O2 to access the fermentating [sic] wine (made in an oxidative manner).

I'd say that's a widely accepted definition - although there are many people who'd likely drop the oxidative winemaking approach part of the definition, and there probably just as many who'd want to add something about amphorae, etc.

For those who worship at the altar of varietal typicity, or at the altar of terroir...for those who worship these false Gods....this is a badly flawed wine.

Are you suggesting that extended maceration and oxidative winemaking methods reduce varietal and/or terroir expression? I think they tend to (if I had to answer yes/no to those generalised statements), but I'm sure there'd be plenty of winemakers (and wine appreciators) of orange wine who would talk up the terroir and the "natural expression" of the fruit using those techniques.

Like you, Tom, I rarely notice acetic acid/ethyl acetate aromas from orange wines, but I often notice acetaldehyde. "Yog(h)urt" flavo(u)rs sounds like an artefact of lactic acid bacteria, and I can't say I've noticed them in many (or perhaps any) orange wines. The notion of (the classical categorical) technical "faults" is contextual and it almost seems meaningless to talk about "faults" unless you know the winemaker's intention.

He, too, defined orange wine as skin-contact, made in an oxidative manner. I guess I'd go along w/ that definition.
But, then, what do you define a wine like Jim's ISA LakeCnty SauvBlanc. Made w/ skin-contact thru fermentation. But in a reductive manner. Not at all orange in color. Is this an orange wine??? I tend to not define it as an orange wine. Whatta bout it, Jim???

In the thread re Jim's video about him acquiring Ribolla Gialla grapes, I jokingly called the Isa (which I like a lot) "orange lite."
But I guess a more correct term would simply be "skin contact SB." Because to me the "orange" does bring to mind oxidative notes.
As to the word flaw, it should mainly be used in the context of Coturri.
Seriously, I guess to me flaw means "winemaker didn't mean for this to happen."

I don't hold much with trying categorize wines in this way; "natural" and "orange" are pretty nebulous (although they may be good marketing tools).
Most people on these boards make some attempt to describe the wines they drink and, even if those descriptions are imprecise, they convey some information. Maybe that is enough; each wine standing on its own.

The word flaw may be just as difficult to peg but I don't think it means: "winemaker didn't mean for this to happen." While I understand what Dale is inferring, there are a number of wines made that the winemaker had no idea what was going to happen in the end. Isa is a good example.
I think of flaw as more the result of poor sanitation, poor fruit or both. But even that may be too limiting; one man's brett is another's complexity.

Its getting harder for me to see wine in categories the more I taste it.
Best, Jim

I like Dale’s concept of “orange lite” (I would add two more sub-categories under the “Orange Wine” classification, “orange” and “orange crush”). With most other wine categories (dry red table wines for example), there are slightly different preparations and techniques that can be applied (to a “single” batch of grapes) to produce wines (from the same grapes) with slightly different taste profiles (“New World”/”Old World”/ and “the in between”). IMHO this is a good thing.

Salute