New Saint-Emilion classification out

http://www.larvf.com/,vins-resultats-du ... 248034.asp

Best regards,
Alex R.

We promote, we never demote!
Things only get better!

[David M. Bueker]

Except when they get worse. Then we litigate.

The whole thing is nothing mroe than a crock of marketing BS.

Hey, you guys are pretty tough...

Have you actually compared the new classification with the most recent one, Dale?

David, do you know any other fine wine region that has the cojones to do this?

Yes, there were lawsuits years ago. The authorities cleaned up their act. More power to them.

Alex R.

[David M. Bueker]

I honestly do not see a reason to do it.

Alex, I was only commenting on what is listed. I'm guessing a few smaller estates were dropped from GCC (I think last time the XXX-Figeacs were some of the litigants, and I don't see them on there). But my point was the elite categories- Premiere GCCs is where the money is- never have an underperformer-supposedly .

I'll also note re the upgrades that the panel just adores St Emilion that tastes like Napa or SuperTuscans! ( with the possible exception of Jean Faure)

[David M. Bueker]

When I see Pavie and Angelus listed in the same class as Cheval Blanc and Ausone I am dismayed.

When I see the manufactured monstrosity that is Fombrauge elevated I give up.

I think possibly Pavie and Angelus deserve the upgrade. Admittedly I've only tasted each once in my lifetime and that in a good vintage.

Dale,

Once again, I ask you to go back and compare!
I'm awaiting confirmation, but I believe Trottevieille was dropped, Belair was dropped, Magedleine was dropped.
Three premiers crus classés nixed, and only 2 added to that category.
This really is at odds with your original post.

David,

You can pooh-pooh the classification, but the fact is that it is an innovative way of defining hierarchies in Bordeaux.
It is not stuck for eternity, and so much the better!!!
And, above all, it is the way people do things here.
Every region has its particularities.
No more reason to dump on Saint-Emilion than any number of other regions with their own specific characteriestics, laws, quality standards, etc.

Alex R.

I wish that the rest of Bordeaux would update and clear out the chaff - chateaux that haven't been worthy for many, many years, or in some cases no longer exist.

Dale,

Once again, I ask you to go back and compare!
I'm awaiting confirmation, but I believe Trottevieille was dropped, Belair was dropped, Magedleine was dropped.
Three premiers crus classés nixed, and only 2 added to that category.
This really is at odds with your original post.

Alex, not sure what you are reading. I see:

Premier Grand Cru Classé B

Château BEAU-SÉJOUR BÉCOT (maintenu)
Château BEAUSÉJOUR (DUFFAU-LAGARROSSE) (maintenu)
Château BELAIR-MONANGE (maintenu)
Château CANON (maintenu)
Château CANON-LA-GAFFELIÈRE (promu)
Château FIGEAC (maintenu)
Château LA GAFFELIÈRE (maintenu)
Château LA MONDOTTE (promu)
Château LARCIS-DUCASSE (promu)
Château PAVIE-MACQUIN (maintenu)
Château TROPLONG-MONDOT (maintenu)
Château TROTTEVIELLE (maintenu)
Château VALANDRAUD (promu)
Clos FOURTET (maintenu)

> Château MAGDELAINE sort du classement car il fusionne avec BELAIR-MONANGE.
> Château MATRAS sort du classement après son rachat par Château CANON.

So Trottevielle and Belair (renamed Belair-Monage when Mouiex acquired) remain same class. The surprise to me is the statement (if I read correctly, I have poor high school French) that Belair-Monage and Magdelaine merged!
But don't sound like demotions

The official press release below
So Belair-Monange and Trottevieille definitely remain PGCC.
Magdelaine was definitely a PGCC before. So either it did somehow merge (I can't believe I didn't hear this!) or it dropped completely off the classification. which IMO would truly make the whole classification a joke.


Press release
Saint-Emilion, 6 September 2012
2012 Classification of Saint-Emilion wines
The Saint-Emilion Classification honours the excellence of 82 properties
As well as its unique landscape amongst French winegrowing regions, Saint-Emilion is also the only wine producing area to have set up its own classification system, which has been revised at regular intervals since 1955. This modern, evolving classification has become through the various revisions a real strength for all wines in the Saint-Emilion appellations. It drives all the winegrowers in the area to continuously seek quality and enhances the reputation of all the Saint-Emilion wines throughout the whole world.
The rules of the 2012 classification, accepted on 16 June 2011, put the whole of the new procedure under the authority of INAO. A special commission was appointed inside the organisation made up of 7 recognised actors in the winegrowing world, who were chosen for being outside the Bordeaux region.
Every wine had to present an extremely detailed application in order to benefit from Grand Cru Classé or Premier Grand Cru Classé status.
In order to examine fully all the applications, to carry out all the inspections on the estates and to organise the tasting of approximately one thousand samples taken, the Classification Commission decided to enlist the support of two recognised certifying bodies: Qualisud and Bureau Veritas Certification.
Having carried out all these tasks, the Classification Commission was able to prepare the list of the 2012 classification, which was submitted for approval to the National Wines and Brandies Committee of INAO on 6 September 2012 and subsequently accepted.
The 2012 classification honours 82 properties after 10 months of particularly exacting work professionally executed by the Classification Commission under the supervision of INAO and the Ministries of Agriculture and Consumption.
64 Grands Crus Classés and 18 Premiers Grands Crus Classés are awarded their precious status in recognition of the work accomplished by the estates, their consistency in quality and their quest for excellence.
The Classification Commission also decided to award 4 properties with the distinction of Premier Grand Cru Classé A in view of the extent of their reputation and the exceptional ageing potential of their wines.
It now remains for the Ministries of Agriculture and Consumption to officialise the classification
PREMIERS GRANDS CRUS CLASSES :
in alphabetical order:
Château Angélus (A)
Château Ausone (A)
Château Beauséjour (héritiers Duffau-Lagarrosse) Château Beau-Séjour-Bécot
Château Bélair-Monange
Château Canon
Château Canon la Gaffelière
Château Cheval Blanc (A)
Château Figeac
Clos Fourtet
Château la Gaffelière Château Larcis Ducasse
La Mondotte
Château Pavie (A) Château Pavie Macquin Château Troplong Mondot Château Trottevieille Château Valandraud
GRANDS CRUS CLASSES :
in alphabetical order:
Château l’Arrosée
Château Balestard la Tonnelle Château Barde-Haut
Château Bellefont-Belcier Château Bellevue
Château Berliquet
Château Cadet-Bon
Château Capdemourlin Château le Chatelet
Château Chauvin
Château Clos de Sarpe Château la Clotte
Château la Commanderie Château Corbin
Château Côte de Baleau Château la Couspaude Château Dassault
Château Destieux
Château la Dominique Château Faugères
Château Faurie de Souchard Château de Ferrand
Château Fleur Cardinale Château La Fleur Morange Château Fombrauge
Château Fonplégade
Château Fonroque
Château Franc Mayne
Château Grand Corbin
Château Grand Corbin-Despagne Château Grand Mayne
Château les Grandes Murailles Château Grand-Pontet Château Guadet
Château Haut-Sarpe
Clos des Jacobins Couvent des Jacobins Château Jean Faure Château Laniote Château Larmande Château Laroque Château Laroze
Clos la Madeleine Château la Marzelle
Château Monbousquet Château Moulin du Cadet
Clos de l’Oratoire
Château Pavie Decesse
Château Peby Faugères Château Petit Faurie de Soutard Château de Pressac
Château le Prieuré
Château Quinault l’Enclos Château Ripeau
Château Rochebelle
Château Saint-Georges-Cote-Pavie Clos Saint-Martin
Château Sansonnet
Château la Serre
Château Soutard
Château Tertre Daugay
Château la Tour Figeac
Château Villemaurine
Château Yon-Figeac
CLASSIFICATION LIST
PROPOSED BY THE CLASSIFICATION COMMISSION « APPELLATION D’ORIGINE CONTRÔLEE » SAINT-EMILION GRAND CRU
The Saint-Emilion Wine Council will have a full Press Kit available for your use on the Saint-Emilion wine classification from Friday 7 September.
Jacques BERTRAND
Franck BINARD
Astrid DEYSINE
Marie-Agathe HUGON
Honorary President of the Wine Council vignobles.jbertrand@wanadoo.fr
Director of the Wine Council franck.binard@vins-saint-emilion.com
Communications Manager of the Wine Council – Tel. 00 33 557 555 050 astrid.deysine@vins-saint-emilion.com
Press relation of the Wine Council marie-agathe.hugon@vins-saint-emilion.com
Saint-Emilion Wine Council
14, rue Guadet – 33330 Saint-Emilion - FRANCE BP 15 – 14, rue Guadet
33330 Saint-Emilion - FRANCE
Tel. 00 33 557 555 050 Fax: 00 33 557 555 310

Dale,

The link I posted from the Revue du Vin de France was before the official announcement and was incomplete.

The complete list was only made public at 7 pm last night (the RVF had published the feedback that they received from château owners) but, believe it or not, Wikipedia already has it online (before 8 am here). Wow, we live in amazing times!

Obviously, there were winners and losers in the new classification, and it would be cavalier to dismiss it without examining it first!

While not quite as brutal as David, I too think that Angélus and especially Pavie do not have the finesse worthy of their new classification. But here is another vantage point here, although, not one I necessarily agree with.

Lead in: I visited La Mission Haut Brion last week, and mentioned while there that there is some revisionism going on with regard to the 2000 vintage, and people are posting messages that they are disappointed, and that the hype hasn’t been borne out, especially compared to 2005 and 2009. The response I received was very interesting: “Oh, but these wine have appreciated greatly, and are still on a growth curve!”.
In other words, my remark was about quality, and the answer I received was about price.

I bring this up because the two are often confused in people’s minds.
Yes, the wines were tasted by French professionals rather than American journalists, but neither Angélus nor Pavie would have applied for “A” status if they hadn’t been catapulted to the stratosphere by Parker and the taste for modern style Bordeaux.
I remember during the en primeur campaign for the 2009 vintage, a friend had gone to Angélus and said he liked the wine but that it was over 15.1% alc./volume. That sounded unbelievably crazy to me and I called the château to check, and they confirmed.
You can only come to the conclusion that Parker-style wines have their adepts in France too.

Then again, the judges went through a rigorous procedure to select these wines. Have you ever done a 10-year horizontal of Angélus or Pavie, David? I certainly haven’t, so maybe I should reserve judgement somewhat.

Meanwhile, I *like* the fact that Saint-Emilion has the guts to upgrade and downgrade wines, which is an extremely rare occurrence in Burgundy, let’s say. It’s so easy to carp and complain, but you have to admire their taking the bull by the horns. OF COURSE, there is going to be dissension and animated discussion about the merits of such-and-such a château. But these exist for the 1855 classification too, and that has hardly ever changed!

Best regards,
Alex R.

[David M. Bueker]

I didn't know that being "dismayed" was brutal (how I referred to Pavie and Angelus being named in the same breath as Cheval and Ausone).

I'm quite confused about Magdelaine. The now edited article says:
. La Grande surprise vient de Château MAGDELAINE, qui ne fait plus partie du classement. 
AND
 Château MAGDELAINE sort du classement car il fusionne avec BELAIR-MONANGE.

So my bad French says the first statement says "the big surprise is Magdelaine did not make the classification" while the second indicates it merged with Belair.

Now, someone posted this elsewhere

The criteria contributing to the final establishment of the grade are: 
1/ the quality of wines considered by tasting of samples (50 % of the final grade for Grand Cru Classé and 30 % for Premier Grand Cru Classé)
2/ the fame of the vineyard (20 % of the final grade for Grand Cru Classé and 35 % for Premier Grand Cru Classé) 
3/ the parcel plan and the homogeneity of the terroir (20 % of the final grade for Grand Cru Classé and 30 % for Premier Grand Cru Classé) 
4/ the conduct of the vineyard (10 % of the final grade for Grand Cru Classé and 5 % for Premier Grand Cru Classé)

With those criteria, it's really hard to see Magdelaine being ranked less than Villemaurine, Cadet Bon, Ripeau, etc. even if it totally tanked on the tasting.
1) Tasting- while I haven't tasted anything since the excellent 2005, the last few years Magdelaine has seemed to get highest scores in decades from Tanzer, Parker, Suckling, et al
2) Fame- I would guess if you asked a large number of Bordeaux fans to name 10 St Emilions, Magdelaine would be in top 10.
3) Parcel plan- most of Magdelaine is on the chalky area, I guess it could lose points for some of the rest, but still better than some all-sandy properties making classification
4) Vineyard- hard to believe a Moueix property would get low scores here.

Bewildering.

Hi Dale,

I, too, was surprised about Magdelaine, so I called up a friend, Frédéric Lospied, the PR person at Moueix, who confirmed that the estate has indeed merged with Belair and will exist no longer as such starting with the 2012 vintage. The new entity is about 22 hectares.

All the best,
Alex

Somehow, Alex, I can't get very excited about the new Saint-Émilion classification. Pomerol seems to do very well without a classification and Médoc with one 157 years old. Furthermore I need to go back to my reference books to refresh my memory about the meaning of 1er grands crus classés A, B and Grands Crus Classés and the last category contains far too many estates, many of which are quite mediocre.

I don't think I've ever bought a Saint-Émilion having regard to its official classification. I guess that, outside France, most consumers are in the same boat as me.

Burgundy, where they classify terroirs/climats not estates, is another matter.

No one's asking you to get excited, Tim...

But Saint-Emilion *is* one of the world's great wine producing regions, and their way of doing things is different. So what?
In fact, the world of fine wine is far to bloated and self-satisfied. A little competition like this is GOOD.
I'm all for it.

As for Burgundy, they get ridiculously microscopic about things, and you can still buy a shitty Clos de Vougeot at 100 euros a bottle.
So much for terroir...

Best regards,
Alex R.

A little competition like this is GOOD.
I'm all for it.

Alex R.

Where's the competition here, Alex? The real competition is in the market place where people base their buying decisions on the taste of the wine aided by the advice of critics in cases where they have identified palate convergence or where they lack confidence in their own judgement. At best revision of an official classification ratifies the hierarchy which competition in the market place has already established.

Wow, thanks for info on end of Magdelaine. I've had a number of great Magdelaines going back to the 1950s, it's truly one of the most distinctive St Emilions and among my favorites, quite a loss to history. Though I guess Belair Monange is contiguous, so terroir should be similar.

So while there were no PGCCs nixed, there were in fact 3 actual demotions from Grand Cru Classe (Bergat, Cadet Piola, and Corbin Michotte- I've only heard of the latter)

So apparently 2 promotions to PGCC A, 4 to PGCC B, and 17 to GCC. A few absorptions, but all into properties of same or higher classe.

What is striking to me is how heavily they favored the modernistas. I went through and gave my modernista rating (1 being totally old school, 10 being totally international/oak/uberripemess). Of the wines I was familiar with, one was on the traditional side of the line. Of course, many might disagree with my rating (I know someone who declared the 2003 Pavie-Decesse "classic!"). And maybe all the ones I don't know are real traditionalists, but odds against that.

from PGCC B to A
Pavie 10 super modern
Angelus 8 modern

From GCC to PGCC B
Chateau Canon La Gaffeliere 7? modern
Chateau Larcis Ducasse 9 super modern
La Mondotte 10 super modern
Valandraud 10 super modern

To GCC
Chateau Cote de Baleau 7? modern
Chateau Barde Haut 9 super modern
Chateau Le Chatelet ??
Chateau Clos de Sarpe 9 super modern
Chateau Clos La Madeleine ?
Chateau La Commanderie ?
Chateau Faugeres 9 super modern
Chateau de Ferrand ?
Chateau Fombrauge 9 super modern
Chateau La Fleur Morange ?
Chateau Jean Faure 4 fairly traditonal
Chateau La Marzelle ?
Chateau Peby Faugeres 10 super modern
Chateau de Pressac ?
Chateau Quinault l’Enclos 9 super modern
Chateau Rochebelle 6? modern
Chateau Sansonnet 7? modern

maybe they could have just measured alcohol levels and got new oak info and not bothered tasting!

[David M. Bueker]

Maybe the abbreviations should be PGCR and PGCP for Rolland and Perse.

Tim,

You fall into the trap of equating quality with money...
Market value is not the be-all and end-all of quality, I think you'll agree with me on that if you think about it.

David,

Perhaps you'd like to go through the list and tell us what proportion of those wines use Michel Rolland as a consultant.
The cliché is a little tired by now.

By the way, there are fewer châteaux in the 2012 classification than in the original 1960 classification, so it is difficult to speak of inflation.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Tim,

You fall into the trap of equating quality with money...
Market value is not the be-all and end-all of quality, I think you'll agree with me on that if you think about it.

Alex, it seems to me that the classification follows market value very closely. In any case market value reflects customers' perception of quality. Neither you nor I may agree with their aggregate preferences, but there it is.

And now I have a question for you, Alex. I believe that, in the Médoc, an estate, let us say Château Latour, may buy any wine growing plot in its appellation, Pauillac for Latour, and put the grapes from that plot into the 1er cru Grand Vin, regardless of whether that plot was making a grand cru previously. Does the same apply in Saint-Émilion?

Tim,

>>>Alex, it seems to me that the classification follows market value very closely.

There is a correspondence there, yes, as there is one in the opposite direction too (classification to image to price).
The reality is quite complex.
I would cite the example of Larcis Ducasse. Seems to me that this is not at all priced at Premier Cru level, or on a par with the top ones in any event.
It remains relatively little known compared to others in its category.

You asked:
"And now I have a question for you, Alex. I believe that, in the Médoc, an estate, let us say Château Latour, may buy any wine growing plot in its appellation, Pauillac for Latour, and put the grapes from that plot into the 1er cru Grand Vin, regardless of whether that plot was making a grand cru previously. Does the same apply in Saint-Émilion".

As for your example of Latour, yes, you are completely right. Theoretically, that is.
When all is said and done though, a great château has more to lose than to gain by blending wine from inferior plots, and compomising its reputation.
Of course, the ability for Pétrus to add on part of Gazin, or Montrose to buy a big chunk of Phélan Ségur is considered heresy by Burgundians!
Indeed, the book "What Price Bordeaux?" by Benjamin Lewin MW has as its central these that Médoc classified châteaux are brands rather than delimited wine estates.
That is a highly questionable position because, although there are indeed samples of châteaux whose vineyard outlines are radically different from those in 1855 (such as Lascombes).
there are many others whose borders have not change an iota.

The Saint-Emilion classification comes under the wing of the AOC system, which makes it very different.
Thunevin, for instance, had to agree to set aside part of the Valandraud vineyard when asked by the authorities in order to qualify for his new classification.
As to your qustion: can the owners of Saint-Emilion classified vineyards just tack on plots like the Médocains are legally entitled to, the answer is: yes,* if* the authorities (INAO, Syndicat, etc.), agree.
Perhaps you recall the banishing of Beauséjour-Bécot in an earlier classification. They had incorporated the vines of their Ch. La Carte into Beauséjour without anyone's permission. So they were kicked out of the classification.
However, if you go to the authorities and make a clear case (similarity of terroir), and play by the rules, you can indeed annex other vineyards.

The 2012 classification showed me that Bergat was incorporated into Trottevieille and Matras into Canon (now that's tricky because they don't have the same rank, so I'd like to know more here), Haut Corbin into Grand Corbin, and the two La Tour du Pin Figeacs changed staus, and I need to find out about them too.

Where I agree with criticisms voiced on this thread is the difficulty in understanding the St. Emilion classification. Not one person in ten know the difference between St. Emilion Grand Cru and St. Emilion Grand Cru Classé. The former accounts for - roughly - one third of the entire appellation, including a great deal of wine produced by the cooperative. It is absurd for Cheval Blanc, Premier Grand Cru Classé A to have exactly the same appellation as a blend produced by the Cave de Saint Emilion...

Best regards,
Alex R.