Grafting question

I was telling a customer at the shop about the term "old vines" as seen on some wines. (We were looking at Zins, specifically.) The customer asked a question that I believe I know the answer to but thought I'd make sure with this post.
The customer asked if "old vine" vines were grafted onto young root stock, would you get "old vine" grapes. I told him that I thought that "old vines" referred only to the root stock.
Was I correct?

It is a complete package (unless you are doing a field-graft which have much higher failure rates). Normally, a short section of new first-year cane is grafted onto American rootstock, overwintered and planted. The diameter for an omega-graft must be at the most as thick as your little-finger and is often much thinner.

Cheers,
Bill

I was telling a customer at the shop about the term "old vines" as seen on some wines. (We were looking at Zins, specifically.) The customer asked a question that I believe I know the answer to but thought I'd make sure with this post.
The customer asked if "old vine" vines were grafted onto young root stock, would you get "old vine" grapes. I told him that I thought that "old vines" referred only to the root stock.
Was I correct?

Jon,
"Old vines" (or "PrivateReserve" or "minimalist intervention", etc) can mean whatever the heck the people in the marketing department
want it to mean.
I noticed several yrs ago that DeRose Vnyd was making an "old vine" Viognier that was planted in the early 1900's. Say whot??? There was
no (known) Viognier in Calif way back then. Turns out, they had taken part of this "old vine" Zin vnyd and grafted it over to Viognier. Hence..
"old vine" Viognier. It actually was pretty good Viognier. But "old vine"......????
When you graft a bud onto an old-vine vine, the take-rate iis not as good as convential methods or grafting onto planted rootstock. But..still...
it can be done. You let the new bud's shoot grow for a yr or two, then chop off the old stuff on the trunk above the grafted shoot.
What happens when you have this huge (presumably) root/trunk system trying to feed everything it's got into this spindly new-vine shoot???
Haven't a clue. I would guess the vine is smart enough...smarter than some people I know, in fact...that it self-regulates and only feeds in what
the new shoot can sustain. But just guessin' here.
There are a few other examples I know of other than DeRose where this has been done.
Tom

The customer asked if "old vine" vines were grafted onto young root stock, would you get "old vine" grapes. I told him that I thought that "old vines" referred only to the root stock.
Was I correct?

I'd say the opposite.

If the wine is labelled - say - Zinfandel then what is being referred to is the scion; the rootstock is a different variety and species.

So in my book 'Old Vine Zinfandel' must mean the Zinfandel portion of the vine is 'old vine.'

BTW great question. Wouldn't have thought it was the usual sort of question you get.

[Robin Garr]

I don't know this for a fact, but as a consumer I would expect "old vines" to refer to the entire planting, root and branch. Any technical variations (new graft on ancient roots) would seem like sharp practice to me, to say the least. Certainly by simple dictionary definition, too, the name explicitly names "vines," not "roots."

Dry Creek Vineyards makes a "Heritage Clone" Zin which has old-vine scions grafted onto new roots. They also have a different bottling named "Old Vines", which really is.

To my knowledge, the term "old vines" is not strictly defined - not unlike "all natural" or "organic". that being said, the older a vine gets, the deeper and wider the roots are. They draw nutrients and water from a large volume of earth and the vines then become more stable and consistent, as in less susceptible to weather variations and more reflective of the climate and soil. I'm sure there's bud-grafting going on, where a new scion is grafted onto an old, established vine. I don't know what the results would be, if the new vine would reflect the old vine stability sooner than one grafted onto new rootstock. I believe doing such a thing on a large scale would involve expert grafters and it would be very labor intensive.
Note - what Joe is describing is no different than when Lafite bought the Carruades from Mouton and tore out all of Mouton's vines and re-planted with their own clones. Lafite didn't use the grapes from the Carruades property in Ch, Lafite until their own vines were over 20 years old - thus the designation of Carruades is still used for wines from their younger vines.

I somewhat agree with Robin, Joe, and Howie. The term “Old Vine” is very misunderstood. Looking at the life cycle of the vine, it is from the spring’s “new growth” that develops from last year’s “dead wood” that produces “fruit”. Like Robin, if the term “Old Vine” is suggested on the wine label I think it should refer to the “entire” vine and be determined by how long the “entire” vine has been “producing” fruit (not manipulated by man). (Till this very day my Great Grandfather’s roses and fig tree survive. Does this make them “old”?)
As Peter has pointed out, when it comes to grafting you are dealing with two parts or sections, one part being the stock (think of this as the “host”, being the “larger” or “stronger” part, and it can be a root, trunk, or branch) and a scion (usually the “smaller” part that is grafted (or joined) onto the stock). The “source” of the scion (basically “new growth”, a twig or even a bud) could be a very “old vine”. (This “union” IMHO this does not necessarily immediately “create” an “old vine”). (For a graft to be successful the “grafting joint” has to be accurate and tight (or “held” tight enough with adequate “pressure”, (grafting most likely occurred “naturally” and after a while man observed it and tried to “duplicate” it) the “rooting” (“lower”) and “upper” portion of the “stock” or “host” must be “big” and “strong” enough to support and handle the scion, and time must be given so that the grafting joint “heals” and forms a “graft union”. Once the graft union is formed it is an “individual” or “single” plant even though it can now produce two different types of fruit or a “new” type of fruit).

Salute

Well thank you all! I learned something yet again (no surprise there). I did know that Old Vines can mean anything and therefore means nothing. We often get challenging questions like this from customers since they know that everyone who works in the shop has more than a passing interest in wine and it’s production.
Regarding my question, it seems to me now that Old Vines should mean the entire plant with emphasis, by definition, on the vines; this is not what I thought at all. Paramount in this is the fact, as pointed out by Peter May, that if a Zinfandel scion is grafted to root stock of a different variety and species, it is still called Zinfandel.
I’ve also been told old vines tend to be less productive, concentrating production in a smaller number of grapes, thus improving quality – akin to pruning. This, in addition to the fact, as Howie stated, that the older a vine gets, the deeper and wider the roots are (ergo: the more stable the plant), makes old vines desirable to some.
Thanks again!