News: Germany adopts Premier Cru/ Grand Cru system

Well, at least the VDP members have starting with the 2012 vintage. Really not much different than what is currently in place, except that instead of just Grand Cru sites, Premier Cru sites will be added. Note: it was that Erste Lage signified the top growth. That designation will now be used for Premier Cru with Große Lage (which is a little too close to Großlage for my tastes) signifying Grand Cru. It will be interesting to see which sites get promoted/demoted. As of now, the classification seems only to include dry wines and the out-dated Prädikat system loses further ground. We'll see what the regional chapters have to add.

http://www.vdp.de/fileadmin/user_upload/downloads/seite_klassifkation/VDP-Beschlussfassung_Mitgliederversammlung_2012.pdf

Cheers,
Bill

[David M. Bueker]

Woo hoo! The Germans decide to monkey with their wine laws yet again. It's amazing they have any bullets or feet left at this point.

So, let me get this straight, they took the old system, which had one level but three different names for that level, and shamefully left out off-dry wines as their starting point. Then, they re-used the old names, but now signifying two different levels, without addressing the exclusion of off-dry wines? This has got to be a prank, a deliberate attempt to make the system so inscrutable that only geeks will understand it.

Hi Bill -

Thank you for the interesting news of yet another attempt by the VDP to update the classification of German wines, for better or worse. The VDP website has an English version of their new plan here: [url]http://www.vdp.de/nc/en/press/press-detail/article/ausserordentliche-vdp-mitgliederversammlung/?tx_ttnews[backPid]=9&cHash=c9f098fa09[/url] (For some reason, I can't get the whole address to work as a hyperlink.)

From reading this, it does not sound to me that off-dry wines will be ineligible to be named Große Lage or Erste Lage. My understanding of it is that dry wines from Große Lagen are going to be called Große Gewächse as they are now, but an Niederhäuser Hermannshöhle Riesling Auslese, for example, would be labelled "Niederhäuser Hermannshöhle Riesling Auslese Große Lage".

Dry wines will not be allowed to mention a pradikat, though - no more Spätlese Trocken apparently.

I dunno. If the punters here have a hard time understanding all these regulations, how does one expect Joe the plummer or Aunty Mary to sort it all out?

...how does one expect Joe the plummer or Aunty Mary to sort it all out?

They don't need to sort it out. They just need to buy, drink, and enjoy.

Hi Rahsaan, my point is how to explain which wine is dry, off-dry, medium sweet, quite sweet etc. The perception in my experience is that german wines are too sweet to many buyers out there..
I try to push German wines but have had quite a lot of resistance. They also seem quite wary of most Alsace too.
There are quite a few riesling drinkers in Edmonton so it can be tough!

[David M. Bueker]

...how does one expect Joe the plummer or Aunty Mary to sort it all out?

They don't need to sort it out. They just need to buy, drink, and enjoy.

But why should they if they have no idea what they are buying?

Each time the Germans puport to make their wines easier for consumers they in fact make them harder for all but the initiated. While in concept the grand cru/premier cru thing makes sense, it does nothing to clarify the wines to regular consumers. Instead it points to snob appear via a vineyard classification of places most have never heard of to begin with!

Perhaps I'm missing something from my quick read through the link provided by Andrew, but it seems to me that these rules are only binding on VDP members. In other words the 1971 system will co-exist with it amongst non-members. Of course, most of the famous estates are members although there seem to be some gaps. For example I didn't see von Schubert and Breuer.

This is great news for us geeks as it allows us to parade our knowledge by mastering such complexities of labelling, but where does it leave the customers in, say, DeVines and those who wish to sell to them?

As David says bullets and feet must be in short supply in the German wine world.

Dry wines will not be allowed to mention a pradikat, though - no more Spätlese Trocken apparently.

All this fine debate is keeping me awake and I have to leave for Medicine Hat in a couple of hours! As for the above, Spätlese Trocken was one of my tools for selling the drier style of riesling.
I have no ammo left!

Good night.

[David M. Bueker]

Somehow I don't think the VDP will mind reposting the resolution here:

1) Four designations denote VDP appellations of origin
VDP Grosse Lage
VDP Erste Lage
VDP Ortswein
VDP Gutswein

2) New designation to denote the origin of top-level wines – VDP Grosse Lage – rather than VDP Erste Lage
The top-level category has been renamed. A new category has not been created, but rather the terminology has been shuffled in order to reconcile the discrepancy between the designations Erste Lage and Grosses Gewächs, as well as underscore the equally high status of wines with residual sweetness produced from grapes grown in exceptional sites.

3) Review of the designation to denote wines in the middle segment – formerly known as wines from classified sites
All VDP regional associations and member estates have been assigned the task of critically reappraising the above-named category. The goal is to be more discriminating in determining what constitutes a very good site, i.e., do the wines produced from grapes produced in such sites really show site-specific characteristics...terroir...and if not, those sites should no longer be named on labels. In all, the number of classified sites is to be reduced.

4) VDP Erste Lage – an opportunity to differentiate between the very best and very good sites
The use of the designation VDP Grosse Lage to denote the absolutely finest vineyards of a region is valid for all member estates across the board, effective as of vintage 2012. The use of the designation VDP Erste Lage to denote very good sites is optional, to be determined region by region. The regions can also determine when, if ever, to introduce the use of VDP Erste Lage. In other words, some regions might feel the designation VDP Grosse Lage suffices to describe its classified sites; other regions might wish to differentiate between their very best and very good classified sites, in which case they can opt to use the designation VDP Erste Lage to denote the latter.

5) Regional differences are taken into consideration
The VDP national association has set up an overall classification model. At the same time, the regional associations have considerable leeway in refining the model to take regional differences into consideration.

6) Clear vote on Grosses Gewächs
Henceforth, Grosse Gewächse (great growths) originate in Grosse Lagen (great sites) – a clear statement that eliminates ambiguity. Members unanimously approved ongoing use of the designation Grosses Gewächs to denote the finest dry wines from Germany’s finest vineyards, a term that has achieved international recognition since its introduction.

7) Prädikats are reserved for wines with residual sweetness
The Prädikats are to be used exclusively for wines with natural, ripe sweetness. The Prädikats can be used for wines in all categories except VDP Gutswein. Specific taste profiles for the Prädikats are to be determined region by region. Members are to refrain from using Prädikats for dry and off-dry wines, thereby enabling the Prädikats to resume their traditional meaning.


I have specific concerns with a number of the elements which I will post when I have some more time.

[David M. Bueker]

Once more with my comments:

1) Four designations denote VDP appellations of origin
VDP Grosse Lage
VDP Erste Lage
VDP Ortswein
VDP Gutswein

Given the goal of item #3 below I would expect that we will be seeing Ortswein and Gutswein on the shelves in the future. Neither one sounds appetizing. Didn’t the French outlaw to consumption of Ortolanswein a while back?

2) New designation to denote the origin of top-level wines – VDP Grosse Lage – rather than VDP Erste Lage
The top-level category has been renamed. A new category has not been created, but rather the terminology has been shuffled in order to reconcile the discrepancy between the designations Erste Lage and Grosses Gewächs, as well as underscore the equally high status of wines with residual sweetness produced from grapes grown in exceptional sites.

There actually things in this point I can buy into, especially the bit about recognizing that wines with residual sweetness are not the work of the devil, but delicious wines in their own right. Still some issues though. Grosse Lage is a little too close to Grosslage for my taste. Of course if they were to get rid of the horrible Grosslagen (Piesporter Michelsberg anyone??) then things would be fine!

3) Review of the designation to denote wines in the middle segment – formerly known as wines from classified sites
All VDP regional associations and member estates have been assigned the task of critically reappraising the above-named category. The goal is to be more discriminating in determining what constitutes a very good site, i.e., do the wines produced from grapes produced in such sites really show site-specific characteristics...terroir...and if not, those sites should no longer be named on labels. In all, the number of classified sites is to be reduced.

Unless they first undo the silly vineyard expansions of 1971 that watered down the great sites then this is beyond useless.

4) VDP Erste Lage – an opportunity to differentiate between the very best and very good sites
The use of the designation VDP Grosse Lage to denote the absolutely finest vineyards of a region is valid for all member estates across the board, effective as of vintage 2012. The use of the designation VDP Erste Lage to denote very good sites is optional, to be determined region by region. The regions can also determine when, if ever, to introduce the use of VDP Erste Lage. In other words, some regions might feel the designation VDP Grosse Lage suffices to describe its classified sites; other regions might wish to differentiate between their very best and very good classified sites, in which case they can opt to use the designation VDP Erste Lage to denote the latter.

Ok, so we have a set of rules that only apply to some estates, and ALSO have a rule that is optional AND to be determined region by region. That’s so helpful that I’m ready to import lots and lots of German wine, as consumers will just be lining up to buy this easy to understand stuff.

5) Regional differences are taken into consideration
The VDP national association has set up an overall classification model. At the same time, the regional associations have considerable leeway in refining the model to take regional differences into consideration.

This is just a reiteration of what is in part of item #4. So we don’t really have a set of rules for VDP estates in Germany. We have the opportunity for VDP rules for the Mosel, the Rheingau, the Nahe, etc. While we are at it, why don’t we get the folks in the Cote de Beaune to set up a slightly different system from the Cote de Nuits.

6) Clear vote on Grosses Gewächs
Henceforth, Grosse Gewächse (great growths) originate in Grosse Lagen (great sites) – a clear statement that eliminates ambiguity. Members unanimously approved ongoing use of the designation Grosses Gewächs to denote the finest dry wines from Germany’s finest vineyards, a term that has achieved international recognition since its introduction.

Accompanied by international derision, snickering, high prices and really heavy bottles.

7) Prädikats are reserved for wines with residual sweetness
The Prädikats are to be used exclusively for wines with natural, ripe sweetness. The Prädikats can be used for wines in all categories except VDP Gutswein. Specific taste profiles for the Prädikats are to be determined region by region. Members are to refrain from using Prädikats for dry and off-dry wines, thereby enabling the Prädikats to resume their traditional meaning.

So a producer makes a really good dry wine from a site that somehow loses out in the reducing of classified sites – what do they call it? 40 years of using the pradikats, and now in a flash they are gone? Stupid.

A few comments -

1. I could live with this VDP resolution subject to detailed comments below if it were merged intelligently with the 1971 law. However letting it run in parallel is a recipe for confusion.
2. As Bill says Grosse Lage and Grosslage are suspiciously similar. Possibly given the inbuilt German rigour (which looks like condemning much of the rest of Europe to constitutionally imposed economic depression ), no German would ever confuse to two terms but what about the rest of us...? Therefore the term Grosslage should be abolished. Within any substitute term, names which could easily be confused with those of an einsellage without specific knowledge should be banned.
3. Does this following statement contain a glimmer of hope that "downgrading" of higher prädikat categories will come to an end?
"Specific taste profiles for the Prädikats are to be determined region by region. Members are to refrain from using Prädikats for dry and off-dry wines, thereby enabling the Prädikats to resume their traditional meaning." I would like to see Oechsle maxima for each prädikat category except TbA.

[David M. Bueker]

A few comments -

1. I could live with this VDP resolution subject to detailed comments below if it were merged intelligently with the 1971 law. However letting it run in parallel is a recipe for confusion.

Merged intelligently? You're kidding, right? This is the problem of having a German Wine Law that applies to all producers, and separate, self-imposed regulations that apply to some of the best producers. You cannot do the merge and retain the exclusivity of the VDP.

2. As Bill says Grosse Lage and Grosslage are suspiciously similar. Possibly given the inbuilt German rigour (which looks like condemning much of the rest of Europe to constitutionally imposed economic depression ), no German would ever confuse to two terms but what about the rest of us...? Therefore the term Grosslage should be abolished. Within any substitute term, names which could easily be confused with those of an einsellage without specific knowledge should be banned.

AMEN!!! (especially to the part I underlined)

3. Does this following statement contain a glimmer of hope that "downgrading" of higher prädikat categories will come to an end?
"Specific taste profiles for the Prädikats are to be determined region by region. Members are to refrain from using Prädikats for dry and off-dry wines, thereby enabling the Prädikats to resume their traditional meaning." I would like to see Oechsle maxima for each prädikat category except TbA.

The problem is that it will be region by region, thus introducing even more confusion.

Hi Rahsaan, my point is how to explain which wine is dry, off-dry, medium sweet, quite sweet etc. The perception in my experience is that german wines are too sweet to many buyers out there..

Well if the retailer knows the answer then it shouldn't be too tough: "This wine is dry" "This wine is off-dry" and so on.

I can see how they might not jump off the shelves in Costco or a place without salespeople, but my impression of the casual wine consumer in the more serious wine shops with intelligent staff is that the consumer is not really scrutinizing labels for these details anyway. They just want something they like and can return to buy.

I would like to see Oechsle maxima for each prädikat category except TbA.

Agree.

These new VDP rules sound like a Monty Python sketch.

Hi David, I’ve added my perspective in blue.

Once more with my comments:

1) Four designations denote VDP appellations of origin
VDP Grosse Lage
VDP Erste Lage
VDP Ortswein
VDP Gutswein

Given the goal of item #3 below I would expect that we will be seeing Ortswein and Gutswein on the shelves in the future. Neither one sounds appetizing. Didn’t the French outlaw to consumption of Ortolanswein a while back?

There are currently both Orts and Gutsweine. The Ortsweine use a village name (for example Haardter Riesling or Ürziger Riesling,) much like the village names of Burgundy. It is often a blend of vineyards within a village (Ort). I don’t see any problem with this even in export markets. There are some wines labelled ‘Gutswein’ in Germany, but not many. For the most part they are labelled with the name of the Estate and the Grape variety (Müller-Catoir Riesling, Bürgerspital Silvaner) without any reference to which vineyard it came from as it is almost always a mix of vineyards. This is a very New-World model and I also don’t see much confusion with this.
Riesling goes very well with Ortolan! Especially a dry one.

2) New designation to denote the origin of top-level wines – VDP Grosse Lage – rather than VDP Erste Lage
The top-level category has been renamed. A new category has not been created, but rather the terminology has been shuffled in order to reconcile the discrepancy between the designations Erste Lage and Grosses Gewächs, as well as underscore the equally high status of wines with residual sweetness produced from grapes grown in exceptional sites.

There actually things in this point I can buy into, especially the bit about recognizing that wines with residual sweetness are not the work of the devil, but delicious wines in their own right. Still some issues though. Grosse Lage is a little too close to Grosslage for my taste. Of course if they were to get rid of the horrible Grosslagen (Piesporter Michelsberg anyone??) then things would be fine!

The VDP members are restricted from using Großlagen designations on their labels (and have been for some time), so this is not an issue when buying from VDP estates (provided that you know about that restriction.) Also, the term Großlagen does not appear on labels, however misleading that may be. But I do agree that it will confuse.

3) Review of the designation to denote wines in the middle segment – formerly known as wines from classified sites
All VDP regional associations and member estates have been assigned the task of critically reappraising the above-named category. The goal is to be more discriminating in determining what constitutes a very good site, i.e., do the wines produced from grapes produced in such sites really show site-specific characteristics...terroir...and if not, those sites should no longer be named on labels. In all, the number of classified sites is to be reduced.

Unless they first undo the silly vineyard expansions of 1971 that watered down the great sites then this is beyond useless.

I’d like to see the vineyards restored to some assemblance of what they were, but the truth is that after Flurbereinigung and terracing, the landscape has changed considerably. I just don’t see it happening.

4) VDP Erste Lage – an opportunity to differentiate between the very best and very good sites
The use of the designation VDP Grosse Lage to denote the absolutely finest vineyards of a region is valid for all member estates across the board, effective as of vintage 2012. The use of the designation VDP Erste Lage to denote very good sites is optional, to be determined region by region. The regions can also determine when, if ever, to introduce the use of VDP Erste Lage. In other words, some regions might feel the designation VDP Grosse Lage suffices to describe its classified sites; other regions might wish to differentiate between their very best and very good classified sites, in which case they can opt to use the designation VDP Erste Lage to denote the latter.

Ok, so we have a set of rules that only apply to some estates, and ALSO have a rule that is optional AND to be determined region by region. That’s so helpful that I’m ready to import lots and lots of German wine, as consumers will just be lining up to buy this easy to understand stuff.

The way that German politics combined with the way that jealousies and pettiness thrive especially among smaller, less-fortunate growers in Germany, there is absolutely no way to get support from all of the growers, regional bands and marketing machines. What the VDP can successfully achieve is to convince its own members to support change. What I see as the most important step in this decision is to move towards a Burgundy classification Model and away from an Alsatian one. I can get behind that.

5) Regional differences are taken into consideration
The VDP national association has set up an overall classification model. At the same time, the regional associations have considerable leeway in refining the model to take regional differences into consideration.

This is just a reiteration of what is in part of item #4. So we don’t really have a set of rules for VDP estates in Germany. We have the opportunity for VDP rules for the Mosel, the Rheingau, the Nahe, etc. While we are at it, why don’t we get the folks in the Cote de Beaune to set up a slightly different system from the Cote de Nuits.

Yes, but winemaking and vinegrowing can be vastly different within the 13 different growing regions of Germany and the climatic differences are huge. Weather does dictate style.

6) Clear vote on Grosses Gewächs
Henceforth, Grosse Gewächse (great growths) originate in Grosse Lagen (great sites) – a clear statement that eliminates ambiguity. Members unanimously approved ongoing use of the designation Grosses Gewächs to denote the finest dry wines from Germany’s finest vineyards, a term that has achieved international recognition since its introduction.

Accompanied by international derision, snickering, high prices and really heavy bottles.

I’m not sure how to comment. GG has proved to be successful, especially in Germany. I don’t like the bottles either.

7) Prädikats are reserved for wines with residual sweetness
The Prädikats are to be used exclusively for wines with natural, ripe sweetness. The Prädikats can be used for wines in all categories except VDP Gutswein. Specific taste profiles for the Prädikats are to be determined region by region. Members are to refrain from using Prädikats for dry and off-dry wines, thereby enabling the Prädikats to resume their traditional meaning.

So a producer makes a really good dry wine from a site that somehow loses out in the reducing of classified sites – what do they call it? 40 years of using the pradikats, and now in a flash they are gone? Stupid.

They call it Ortswein and it scores really high in the Amtliche Prüfung tasting for a QbA and they get a little gold sticker to put on the label and they sell out of said wine very quickly.

It is funny because TODAY in school we did an AP Nr. Tasting so that all of the future winery owners of Germany are familiar with the system. It is a simple one that awards points (1-5) in three different categories (Smell, Taste and Harmony) and deducts points for faults and untypicity. The results are added up and divided by three. It is not a blind tasting. You are given the color, year, residual sugar level (Trocken, Halbtrocken, Feinherb, Lieblich, etc.), variety, whether it is from cask or bottle, Qualitätsstufe as according to the German wine law (not the VDP) as in QbA, Kabinett, Spätlese, Auslese, etc., and which region it is from (Südliche Weinstraße, Mittelhaardt, Lower Mosel, whatever.) Under 2 points, you are not awarded an A.P. Number, and if you score very high, you are eligible for a medal sticker (bronze, silver, gold.) For some reason, these medals seem to matter.
I asked about Prädikats being too ripe to be typical, and was told what we all know to be common knowledge. No one is going to risk sending a ‘normal’ Kabinett to the party when their neighbour sends a declassified Spätlese (or better.) So it is.

Personally, I don’t care how much residual sugar a wine has. If it is good, I will gladly drink it. What I like about this change is the addition of a Premier Cru classification to go with Grand Cru. I think that it does help consumers and has worked well in Burgundy, IMO.

I think that we have to remember that the vast majority of VDP wine is consumed in Germany. They make these rules for Germans, who seem to be very comfortable with lots of rules. And here, like it or not, dry wine is what sells.

What really interests me is which vineyards get the PC nod (there are plenty of sites NOT classified now that deserve it, and others that are now recognized that should be relagated.)

Andrew,

I should have read the English release. The German link that I provided doesn’t elaborate on the Prädikat wines being included in the classification of 1er and Grand Cru sites. It was probably included in the English version as that is pertinent info only in English speaking countries (which is a shame to some extent.)

Cheers,
Bill

Very interesting discussion.

An aside, but I had a question for Bill,

They call it Ortswein and it scores really high in the Amtliche Prüfung tasting for a QbA and they get a little gold sticker to put on the label and they sell out of said wine very quickly.

It is funny because TODAY in school we did an AP Nr. Tasting so that all of the future winery owners of Germany are familiar with the system. It is a simple one that awards points (1-5) in three different categories (Smell, Taste and Harmony) and deducts points for faults and untypicity. The results are added up and divided by three. It is not a blind tasting. You are given the color, year, residual sugar level (Trocken, Halbtrocken, Feinherb, Lieblich, etc.), variety, whether it is from cask or bottle, Qualitätsstufe as according to the German wine law (not the VDP) as in QbA, Kabinett, Spätlese, Auslese, etc., and which region it is from (Südliche Weinstraße, Mittelhaardt, Lower Mosel, whatever.) Under 2 points, you are not awarded an A.P. Number, and if you score very high, you are eligible for a medal sticker (bronze, silver, gold.) For some reason, these medals seem to matter.

What is this medal sticker that you refer to? I'm unfamiliar with it. Is it awarded by a government panel? I might have seen one before but was unaware--do you have a link of what it looks like?

And what school are you attending such that you're studying such puzzling matters?

Very interesting discussion.

An aside, but I had a question for Bill,

They call it Ortswein and it scores really high in the Amtliche Prüfung tasting for a QbA and they get a little gold sticker to put on the label and they sell out of said wine very quickly.

It is funny because TODAY in school we did an AP Nr. Tasting so that all of the future winery owners of Germany are familiar with the system. It is a simple one that awards points (1-5) in three different categories (Smell, Taste and Harmony) and deducts points for faults and untypicity. The results are added up and divided by three. It is not a blind tasting. You are given the color, year, residual sugar level (Trocken, Halbtrocken, Feinherb, Lieblich, etc.), variety, whether it is from cask or bottle, Qualitätsstufe as according to the German wine law (not the VDP) as in QbA, Kabinett, Spätlese, Auslese, etc., and which region it is from (Südliche Weinstraße, Mittelhaardt, Lower Mosel, whatever.) Under 2 points, you are not awarded an A.P. Number, and if you score very high, you are eligible for a medal sticker (bronze, silver, gold.) For some reason, these medals seem to matter.

What is this medal sticker that you refer to? I'm unfamiliar with it. Is it awarded by a government panel? I might have seen one before but was unaware--do you have a link of what it looks like?

And what school are you attending such that you're studying such puzzling matters?

Hi Keith,

Yes, The Amtliche Prüfung is required by German Wine Law and the numbers and medals are awarded by the Landwirtschaftskammer (Chamber of Agriculture). Here is a link of a picture:

http://www.goebel-schleyer.com/contents/media/3muenzen-mit-hg.jpg

I'm attending the Wine and Agriculture College in Neustadt as required for completion of my Winemaking Apprenticeship in Germany -also regulated by the German Wine Law.

Cheers,
Bill

There are currently both Orts and Gutsweine. The Ortsweine use a village name (for example Haardter Riesling or Ürziger Riesling,) much like the village names of Burgundy. It is often a blend of vineyards within a village (Ort). I don’t see any problem with this even in export markets. There are some wines labelled ‘Gutswein’ in Germany, but not many. For the most part they are labelled with the name of the Estate and the Grape variety (Müller-Catoir Riesling, Bürgerspital Silvaner) without any reference to which vineyard it came from as it is almost always a mix of vineyards. This is a very New-World model and I also don’t see much confusion with this.
Riesling goes very well with Ortolan! Especially a dry one.

Hi Bill -

Thank you for clearing up about Ortswein - I was also confused about that.

What confuses me now is what if an accepted vineyard name DOES NOT even qualify for Erste Lage status after these new regulations come into effect? Will an Ortswein be able to state the name of an established, but somewhat lesser site on the label? Of course, there are many Burgundies that name single vineyards on their labels that are not premiers crus, like Meursault Les Rougeots. Will VDP members no longer be able to name such a vineyard on their labels? Perhaps a trivial matter, but confusing to me nonetheless.

Incidentally, a couple of years ago I did try a wine from Gerhard Gutzler at a retail tasting that was indeed labeled as Gutswein. Certainly nothing special, for sure.

Hi Andrew,

Up until now it was allowed in the form of 'Klassifierte Lagen' with examples off the top of my head being Gimmeldingen Biengarten or Haardter Herrenletten. I'm going to assume that these will fall into the Erste Lage category for 2012 (they deserve it), but the way that I read it, other, lesser sites will not be mentioned and the VDP has been actively working to eliminate their use for a few years. I actually can't think of too many VDP members who would or do now bother to put lesser sites on their labels, so it might not be an issue. Actually, most of the producers in Germany refrain from using site names that are meaningless in terms of quality (opting rather to showcase the name of their Weingut as a measure of quality -it makes no sense to tie yourself to a vineyard that has marginal or even negative name recognition.) That was not the case years ago. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with putting a vineyard name on a label whatever it is, but it is practical to limit the number of sites that a consumer must sift through.

Cheers,
Bill

Hi Andrew,

Up until now it was allowed in the form of 'Klassifierte Lagen' with examples off the top of my head being Gimmeldingen Biengarten or Haardter Herrenletten. I'm going to assume that these will fall into the Erste Lage category for 2012 (they deserve it), but the way that I read it, other, lesser sites will not be mentioned and the VDP has been actively working to eliminate their use for a few years. I actually can't think of too many VDP members who would or do now bother to put lesser sites on their labels, so it might not be an issue. Actually, most of the producers in Germany refrain from using site names that are meaningless in terms of quality (opting rather to showcase the name of their Weingut as a measure of quality -it makes no sense to tie yourself to a vineyard that has marginal or even negative name recognition.) That was not the case years ago. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with putting a vineyard name on a label whatever it is, but it is practical to limit the number of sites that a consumer must sift through.

Cheers,
Bill

Don't a lot of consumers have a prejudice in favour of specific vineyard site names even if the site concerned does not carry a 1er cru/erste lage tag? I would confess to preferring instinctively, say, Meursault Les Tessons to a simple Meusault, though relative producer reputation would over-trump this preference, e.g. Dom. Coche-Duru v. Dom. Pipi-Caca.

Hi Andrew,

Up until now it was allowed in the form of 'Klassifierte Lagen' with examples off the top of my head being Gimmeldingen Biengarten or Haardter Herrenletten. I'm going to assume that these will fall into the Erste Lage category for 2012 (they deserve it), but the way that I read it, other, lesser sites will not be mentioned and the VDP has been actively working to eliminate their use for a few years. I actually can't think of too many VDP members who would or do now bother to put lesser sites on their labels, so it might not be an issue. Actually, most of the producers in Germany refrain from using site names that are meaningless in terms of quality (opting rather to showcase the name of their Weingut as a measure of quality -it makes no sense to tie yourself to a vineyard that has marginal or even negative name recognition.) That was not the case years ago. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with putting a vineyard name on a label whatever it is, but it is practical to limit the number of sites that a consumer must sift through.

Cheers,
Bill

Hi Bill -

Thanks you for answering my question. Gimmeldinger Biengarten or Haardter Herrenletten are exactly the type of vineyards that I was wondering about.

I'll also concur with what Tim wrote about being predisposed to buy a vineyard-designated wine over an Ortswein when the style and producer are comparable.