BYOB law in New York State?

Does anybody know exactly what the NYS Liquor Authority law on BYOB is for a restaurant that already legally sells liquor and wine? The SLA Website says restaurants need a license to permit patrons to bring in bottles. But they don’t bother to specify if the restaurant in the example has a liquor license to sell wine, or not, or bother to identify what kind of license they are talking about. Are they talking about a restaurant that has no license to deal with booze at all? or a restaurant with a liquor license that needs an additional license, such as a bottle club license? Another site said that a NYS restaurant needs a bottle club license to permit BYOB; but, again, they didn’t bother to mention what that is or how a restaurant would get one; or whether they were talking about a restaurant with or without a liquor license already. What is a bottle club license?

I ask because I visited two restaurants over the last week that sell beer, wine and booze, but their owners said it was illegal for me to bring in my own bottle, when I asked. Yet I have been bringing my own bottles to New York State restaurants for years and paying corkage fees, as if it is a legal and standard practice! I will attempt to phone the SLA if I don’t get a definitive answer here. But I figure somebody on the forum will know the answer.

As of 2007 the New York State liquor Authority really didn’t have rules and regulations for ‘bottle service” but since the early 2000’s “bottle service” once again became the “in-thing” to do especially in nightclubs. So an amendment was made and basically a licensed establishment to sell or provide “bottle service” had to obtain a “second license” to allow them to practice “bottle service”.

http://www.abc.state.ny.us/system/files/SLA-DB-16.pdf

Salute

As of 2007 the New York State liquor Authority really didn’t have rules and regulations for ‘bottle service” but since the early 2000’s “bottle service” once again became the “in-thing” to do especially in nightclubs. So an amendment was made and basically a licensed establishment to sell or provide “bottle service” had to obtain a “second license” to allow them to practice “bottle service”.

http://www.abc.state.ny.us/system/files/SLA-DB-16.pdf

Salute

Thank you very much...is it Victor?

Best,

Covert

Bottle service is the sale of full bottles of liquor (hard alcohol) often in a Club setting. The legislation says nothing about BYO wine that I see.

From the ABC's FAQ: "Can a customer bring in his or her own liquor/wine/beer into a licensed restaurant or bar?Yes, with the approval of the licensee and as long as the alcohol product is covered under the license in effect and the patron removes the unconsumed alcoholic beverage upon departing the licensed premises. "

As I read it the restaurant can prohibit you from BYOB. It's likely that restaurant was being dishonest with you.

Also: "BYOB, or “Bring Your Own Bottle,” where owners of establishments allow their customers to bring alcoholic beverages to their premises to be consumed on site, is NOT PERMITTED in unlicensed businesses in New York State. You MUST have a license or permit to sell/serve beer, wine or liquor to the public. Venues without a license or permit may not allow patrons to “bring their own” alcoholic beverages for consumption. In addition, owners of businesses may not give away alcoholic beverages to their patrons. Those that do are in violation of the NYS Alcoholic Beverage Control Law.

Applicants should be aware that allowing BYOB without a license may jeopardize their chances for approval of their license."

Also: "BYOB, or “Bring Your Own Bottle,” where owners of establishments allow their customers to bring alcoholic beverages to their premises to be consumed on site, is NOT PERMITTED in unlicensed businesses in New York State. You MUST have a license or permit to sell/serve beer, wine or liquor to the public. Venues without a license or permit may not allow patrons to “bring their own” alcoholic beverages for consumption. In addition, owners of businesses may not give away alcoholic beverages to their patrons. Those that do are in violation of the NYS Alcoholic Beverage Control Law.

Applicants should be aware that allowing BYOB without a license may jeopardize their chances for approval of their license."

Thomas, this is very helpful and raises the question of why actually three (I said two, but my wife phoned a friend who owns a restaurant) restaurateurs said it was illigal, when all three are licensed to sell wine. You can never overestimate how far a person will go to make a buck, but I suspect they just don't know.

I agree some may be ignorant, but it's got to be especially infuriating if you know otherwise. If they serve alcohol it's a regulated business thus I would expect them to be knowledgable about the law. I ttook me less than 10 minuters to get an answer.

[David M. Bueker]

In my experience in CT, where BYO is legal under virtually all criteria, the distributors tell the restaurants it is illegal. I wonder why they would do that...

I just called the NYS Liquor Authority and asked the question of a gentleman in the licensing department. He confirmed what my learned colleagues on this Forum have already made clear, adding the obvious that it is up to the establishment; they are not obligated to accept your bottle. The official also said that the establishment must open the bottle. And we already know that the restaurant must have a license to sell wine. I said that three restaurants had told me over the last week that it was illegal and I wondered if something might have very recently changed. He said no, and then, as though I were a naive child: "Sir, you must understand that the restaurants are in business to make money, so they would not want you to bring your own bottle." I said I felt honesty and integrity was a higher human authority than making money. He said he couldn't argue that, but he was. I am going to still naively hold out hope that some of these folks are just mistaken, but it will be interesting to hear what they say when I hand them the SLA phone number to call to confirm that it is up to them and not the law. And of course the restaurant can charge any corkage fee it wants. But it is probably easier for some owners to lie than to appear to be gouging.

[David M. Bueker]

But it is probably easier for some owners to lie than to appear to be gouging.

I would suggest that they feel it is easier to lie than to justify their unwillingness to implement a corkage policy.

Please update us after you've talked to restaurant owners about BYOB. I'm mostly curious but do dine occasionally in NYC. NJ allows BYOB (wine and beer) with approval from the local municipality. I'm only aware of a few exceptions like Ocean City, originally a "Baptist" shore town. There are a few "dry" towns most of which allow BYOB, most notably Collingswood. BYOBs are important in NJ and Phila. where markups are typically 4x retail.

[Jenise]

I said I felt honesty and integrity was a higher human authority than making money. He said he couldn't argue that, but he was.

No he wasn't; he was just gently telling you that you'd been lied to.

As is the case with probably most folks who have a meaningful wine collection, I always prefer to bring my own bottle. I live in NYC and I have run into restaurants that have spun me dubious tales about their ability to offer BYO. I just move on. I find that the majority of restaurants that I wish to patronize allow BYO which usually runs from $10 to $35 a bottle, which as we all know makes it a great bargain...as a great example of that truism, I was in Le Cirque 2 weekends ago and saw the '05 & '06 Williams Selyem Sonoma Coast bottlings on their wine list for $250. I paid about $45! I've never asked if they allow BYO as their cocktails are so darn good!

thomas, i think ocean city was originally a Methodist town. In the past they have been as anti alcohol as Baptists; but both seem to be changing. i understand Georgetown, Ky is now wet after Appleby's gave the college a new sports complex.

btw, i recently learned about a new twist to the wet/dry thing. in Ky a locality can be 'moist' = alcohol available in restaurants but not for retail.

As is the case with probably most folks who have a meaningful wine collection, I always prefer to bring my own bottle. I live in NYC and I have run into restaurants that have spun me dubious tales about their ability to offer BYO. I just move on. I find that the majority of restaurants that I wish to patronize allow BYO which usually runs from $10 to $35 a bottle, which as we all know makes it a great bargain...as a great example of that truism, I was in Le Cirque 2 weekends ago and saw the '05 & '06 Williams Selyem Sonoma Coast bottlings on their wine list for $250. I paid about $45! I've never asked if they allow BYO as their cocktails are so darn good!

I wouldn't have the guts to bring my own bottle to Le Cirque, but I applaud anybody who does. How was Le Cirque? I used to visit the restaurant occasionally, but my wife tries to convince me that I'm closing in on a fixed income, so when she is with me we dine at NYC bistros.

I called a good friend who owns a wine bar and told him the story. He assumes that all three restaurateurs were ill-informed rather than mendacious. I think so too, realizing I could be naïve about it. I did not grok lying eyes in the two owners I spoke to directly; and my wife, who had phoned and gotten the same incorrect answer from the third restaurant owner, a client of hers, can’t see any reason for him to have lied to her. So, prior to talking again to two owners, this time about my conversation with the SLA, I want to go on record here that I assume the people just didn’t know. Lynn doesn’t want to put her client on the spot. I will report back.

As is the case with probably most folks who have a meaningful wine collection, I always prefer to bring my own bottle. I live in NYC and I have run into restaurants that have spun me dubious tales about their ability to offer BYO. I just move on. I find that the majority of restaurants that I wish to patronize allow BYO which usually runs from $10 to $35 a bottle, which as we all know makes it a great bargain...as a great example of that truism, I was in Le Cirque 2 weekends ago and saw the '05 & '06 Williams Selyem Sonoma Coast bottlings on their wine list for $250. I paid about $45! I've never asked if they allow BYO as their cocktails are so darn good!

I wouldn't have the guts to bring my own bottle to Le Cirque, but I applaud anybody who does. How was Le Cirque? I used to visit the restaurant occasionally, but my wife tries to convince me that I'm closing in on a fixed income, so when she is with me we dine at NYC bistros.

The food is great, Covert. We have only gone into the main dining room once which is rather formal requiring a jacket, which they'll give you if you show up without one. We prefer to eat in the cafe area which has a little bar, a very nice ambiance, AND offers a $35. two course prix fixe including appetizer & entree. You can add desert for an additional $10. They have nice wines by the glass and excellent cocktails which carry Manhattan prices but are worth a few extra bucks. We go when feel like being someplace special. They've been at their new location since 2006. You can check out the Cafe prix fixe menu at Lecirque.com

[Robin Garr]

btw, i recently learned about a new twist to the wet/dry thing. in Ky a locality can be 'moist' = alcohol available in restaurants but not for retail.

For the record, that's a relatively modern innovation (within the past decade), apparently a way station on the road toward full alcohol sales for counties that want to move into the 21st century but where old traditions die hard.

Well, the reaction of the first restaurant didn’t support my assumption of innocence. But I don’t suppose there is any way ever to answer the question of what the owner was thinking, or doing, or what he knew or didn’t know. He just said, “Really?” That was that. So I can now carry in my wine and I agreed to help the man purchase a couple of decent, but inexpensive, Bordeaux for his wine list, for times when we might be coming from somewhere else than camp and want to stop in without a bottle.

With all this background, I can’t really name the restaurant without potentially souring my association there. For a number of years Lynn and I have been traveling a good distance to dine because there are only very rustic (he says euphemistically) restaurants near our mountain camp, such as the Black Bear Inn, with more pickup trucks toting rifles than black bears in the woods, and the Bear Trap, which is even less inviting. This one I have been fighting to get into with a bottle has really good food, as I mentioned, and we loved the mountain atmosphere. I don’t think the term ambience would apply. It is nearly November and a little nippy in the North Woods, however a number of patrons, men included, were in shorts, as was the owner, which was curious – like they just walked away from their roaring wood stoves into the corner eatery for a bite. And almost everybody drank water, iced tea or coke. When we whipped out our Riedel glasses with our 1994 Branaire, our waitress said, “Oh, you brought your own glasses; we don’t have any like that here; but I do at home, only they are colored.” It’s not a Mormon community, either. But the people there are very nice and something about the place is relaxingly comfortable, especially being so close to camp to limit potential gendarme exposure. And you get the feeling that if a cop did stop you, and you told him where you were coming from, he would let you go without a sobriety test, if you were not acting like an A-5, like they do in France.

[Jenise]

Well, the reaction of the first restaurant didn’t support my assumption of innocence. But I don’t suppose there is any way ever to answer the question of what the owner was thinking, or doing, or what he knew or didn’t know. He just said, “Really?” That was that.

Sounds pretty guilty. He certainly didn't show any interest or excitement about developing a policy, did he?

Well, the reaction of the first restaurant didn’t support my assumption of innocence. But I don’t suppose there is any way ever to answer the question of what the owner was thinking, or doing, or what he knew or didn’t know. He just said, “Really?” That was that.

Sounds pretty guilty. He certainly didn't show any interest or excitement about developing a policy, did he?

I think he just knows he doesn't have the clientele. When I phoned him today, he said, “We are not the Friends Lake Inn, you know.” The place has been around forever and it has gravitated into a neighborhood environment where people who don’t want to fuss, or pay a lot, but appreciate really fine food, meaning very tasty, not fancy, go. There are several tons of this genre in the Adirondack Park, and the restaurant does very well. However, I saw the Mercedes of a lakeside millionaire I know of (his license plate gave him away) in the lot when we left. He was dressed incognito. Lynn was embarrassed by my Michael Weston secret agent attire, in contrast, and apologized to the owner for me. She went in rustic chic, but with New York salon hair and makeup that would rival a Chanel makeup counter job at Lord and Taylor – like she was fooling anybody. The reason we didn’t go in more slovenly was because it was my birthday dinner – a very big deal. We saved a lot by going there instead of New York City, the usual venue for our birthdays, when we don’t go to Paris or Bordeaux. It was really a milestone for us in our aging process. A turning point. Hence our choice of 1994 Branaire, but not 1968.

We had a momentary skirmish with the owner at dinner. I said it was too bad that we couldn’t come back, because life is too short to drink less than fine wine. He said you have to do what you have to do, and walked away. But later he walked back over to our table and sat down, and said he would like to see us return. That was extremely gracious and disarmed me to the point of committing to find a way. When I phoned him today he said it was great to hear what the Liquor Authority said so that we could enjoy the restaurant, meaning we were welcome to bring in wine from now on. So, it is a bit on an enigma, but I am very happy to have established a neighborhood haunt, finally. I will write up a review of it after tincture of time has separated it sufficiently from this thread.

GoBYO lists Le Cirque as allowing BYO, but says corkage fee varies- from $75 to $100. That makes BYO pretty unattractive, I'd generally just order btg or off lowest end of menu (or go to a better restaurant with a better corkage policy, plenty of top places with $30-45 corkage, and of course some top places have free BYO nights). Or have cocktails like Tom.

Obviously BYO isn't illegal. but restaurants can do what they want (and we can choose to go elsewhere). However, if I really want to carry my own somewhere, I've generally found "well, I'd like to try your place, but I really had a special bottle I wanted to open, and I'll just go to Gramercy Tavern where corkage is $35" works. I think most owners are just worried that if they offer corkage, they'll be overrun with people with Yellowtail, Mouton-Cadet, or Joel Gott. Often if one makes it clear you are willing to spend more than cheapest bottle on list, they'll relax.

thomas, i think ocean city was originally a Methodist town. In the past they have been as anti alcohol as Baptists; but both seem to be changing. i understand Georgetown, Ky is now wet after Appleby's gave the college a new sports complex.

btw, i recently learned about a new twist to the wet/dry thing. in Ky a locality can be 'moist' = alcohol available in restaurants but not for retail.

you're right Methodist, I should've wikied it.