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WBR: NakedWine by AliceFeiring

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WBR: NakedWine by AliceFeiring

by TomHill » Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:21 pm

Just completed my reading of Alice's new book. I highly disliked her first book "The Battle For Wine & Love or How I Saved The World From Parkerization". It had a whiny/preachy/dogmatic/vitriolic/meglomanic tone that I felt obscured the message she was trying to deliver. It focused way too much on Parker and his evil side and too little what's good about natural wines (whatever the heck they are defined as). I've seen no signs that she, indeed, saved us from Parkerization. I sorta felt her view of the wine world was simplistic, either black or white, with no room for middle ground. You were either good/natural or you were evil/spoofalated/Parkerized.
So I eagerly started reading her new book last week with the trepidation that it would likely be just more of the same whiny/preachy diatribes that we saw in her first. Surprise/surprise...it is not. It has vastly toned down the vitriol and rhetoric from her first book.
The book is sorta a travelogue book along the lines of KermitLynch's or NeilRosenthal (though not nearly as entertaining as his) as Alice flits from one of her favored producers to another; describing them in personal/glowing terms as evidence as to why we should like their natural wines. It also details in much detail her first winemaking attempt with KevinHamel of the Davero Sagrantino (priced at $75-$100/btl....don't think I'm buying a wine like this that has been manipulated, at that sorta price).
What I particularly liked about Alice's new book is that she has grudgingly come to the realization that there may actually be a middle ground for natural wines. She acknowledges that there is some (valid) disagreement among its proponents as to what constitutes a natural wine. Is it minimal or no use of SO2? Can a wine use the lysozyme enzyme additive and still be a natural wine?? Can you harvest an overipe Sagrantino at 26.5% and still expect it to show its terroir (she asserts that it can...even though it was manipulated by watering back. I seriously doubt that even Alice can recognize Evers Ridgely's terroir based on one single data point).
I think her book also gives a very good retelling of the history of natural wines, at least from the European perspective.
She quotes RobertParker and DavidSchildknecht several times through her book. But instead of ripping into them as evil, she simply lets their statements stand or fall on their own merits...mostly they fall and don't come out looking very good.
She seems to believe that to make a natural wine, then you also must grow the grapes, at the very minimum, organic, but, preferably BioDynamic or Fukuoka. OTOH, she does acknowledge that there are some wines she likes (EricTexier, SteveEdmunds, Arnot-Roberts) in which the winemaker doesn't grow the grapes.
So what, exactly, is a natural or a naked wine?? Don't look to this book to give you any hard/firm definitions. And there now appears to be some wiggle room, in Alice's view, as to what constitutes a natural wine.
So...by my definition...a natural wine is any wine that Alice likes, and that is made by techniques that Alice approves of. That said, I'm fully confident that Alice has liked some wines over the years, that have had yeast additives or put thru RO (despite what she may think, I don't think that she, or I, can identify an evil signature in a wine that has been RO'd. Or identify a wine that has been spoofalated..whatever the heck that means). That is to say, a natural wine is not identified by a winemaking recipe or a dogmatic adherence to certain winemaking techniques, but is identified by a style of wine...one that Alice likes is a good enough definition for me.,,knowing that it may be a wine that others would not identify as natural. Maybe a bit on the fuzzy side..but it works for me. She even offers up a list of people/wineries of which she approves as making natural wines to help you with this definition.
So...bottom line: If you enjoy wine travelogue books like KermitLynch/GeraldAsher/NealRosenthal, I think you'll like it. If your bent is towards natural wines, by whatever definition you choose to define them, then this book is highly recommended. If your bent is towards going for the big point wines, spoofalated wines, and get very defensive if WS or Parker are not cast in anything but a glowing light; then don't waste you time with this book. If your bent lies in both camps, like some natural wines and hate others, like some spoofalated wines and hate others; I think you'll find Alices new book an entertaining read. Is it going to stir up a lot of buzz and controversy as Alice hopes?? Who gives a rat's a$$.
Tom
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Re: WBR: NakedWine by AliceFeiring

by Oliver McCrum » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:50 am

A measured and thoughtful review, Tom. What's gotten into you?
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Harumph...

by TomHill » Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:04 pm

Oliver McCrum wrote:A measured and thoughtful review, Tom. What's gotten into you?


Just a momentary lapse, Oliver. I'll be back to my ole sarcastic mode in no-time.

Just started reading JamieGoode's book on "authentic" wine. It's a far/far better read on the subject...
very thought-provoking.

Tom
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Alice's List...

by TomHill » Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:06 pm

In the back of her book, Alice provides a list of wines she likes and acknowledges it is an eccentric and personal list:

Calif: Coturri, Hardesty, Donkey&Goat, Natural Process Alliance (?), Arnot-Roberts, Clos Saron, LaCarine/HankBeckmeyer, FourGates,
AmBythEstate, EdmundsStJohn, Bebame.
USofA: EyrieVnyds, Montinore, SilverThread/FingerLakes
Alsace: no Z-H, MarcelDeiss, Weinbach....all BioDynamic growers
Rhone: no Guigal...BioDynamic
Italy: no Friuli or Slovenia....no Gravner or Radikon
Germany: none

Her list iist is obviously not intended to be comprehensive of natural or near-natural producers. Being familiar w/ most of the Calif ones,
I think her choices are based more on style than anything. Some of the BioDynamic producers may be excluded because they make
spoofalated wines, are Parker favorites, or she's not just familiar w/ their wines. Some of her choices are wines I really like, some I really dislike.
I think it's rather surprising that in all of Germany, she hasn't found a single wine she likes. Maybe she just doesn't get Riesling. Maybe the
German winemakers are just too manipulative. Beats me.
Tom
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Re: WBR: NakedWine by AliceFeiring

by Steve Slatcher » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:52 pm

TomHill wrote:She seems to believe that to make a natural wine, then you also must grow the grapes, at the very minimum, organic, but, preferably BioDynamic or Fukuoka.

OK, I'll bite. What's Fukuoka?

Edit: Ah, just found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masanobu_Fukuoka . Still does not say much about how it is applied to viticulture.
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Fukuoka...

by TomHill » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:58 pm

Steve Slatcher wrote:
TomHill wrote:She seems to believe that to make a natural wine, then you also must grow the grapes, at the very minimum, organic, but, preferably BioDynamic or Fukuoka.

OK, I'll bite. What's Fukuoka?


You gotta be a bit careful w/ the pronunciation!! :-)

Fukuoka is(was) a Japanese guy who insisted you must farm crops by neglectiong them...make them struggle on their own to survive.
The Fukuoka vnyds I've seen look like hell. It's considered by many to be one step beyond BioDynamics...or Biodynamics w/o the
faith-based beliefs.
I've not done much reading on it, so can't speak w/ much authority. But it's starting to gain some traction in Calif & around the world.
Tom
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Re: WBR: NakedWine by AliceFeiring

by Jeff Grossman » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:52 pm

Tom (and all), as long as the topic is up... I have been trying to remember the Italian phrase that describes the kind of mixed agriculture that the contadini used to do, many years ago. They did not have the concept of a vineyard or an orchard, just everything grew all mixed up, wherever it happened to be. I think some ag analysts like this "style" for wine grapes because the vines compete for nutrients rather than getting special handling in their mono-species yard. Maybe the phrase was something-or-other promiscura?

Thanks for any help.
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Re: WBR: NakedWine by AliceFeiring

by Victorwine » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:25 pm

“Mixed blend” in Italian “campo miscela”. I think the concept of a Fukuoka vineyard is slightly different, not only do you have different grape varieties interplanted but other crops (potatoes, garlic, herbs, carrots, etc) as well. In a Fukuoka vineyard are the vines trellised?

Salute
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Re: WBR: NakedWine by AliceFeiring

by Hoke » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:15 am

Jeff Grossman/NYC wrote:Tom (and all), as long as the topic is up... I have been trying to remember the Italian phrase that describes the kind of mixed agriculture that the contadini used to do, many years ago. They did not have the concept of a vineyard or an orchard, just everything grew all mixed up, wherever it happened to be. I think some ag analysts like this "style" for wine grapes because the vines compete for nutrients rather than getting special handling in their mono-species yard. Maybe the phrase was something-or-other promiscura?

Thanks for any help.


Agricoltura promiscuo, Jeff. Campo Miscela would better be rendered as "field blend", Victor.
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Re: WBR: NakedWine by AliceFeiring

by Jeff Grossman » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:53 am

Thanks, Hoke. I tried to Google that phrase but got nothing... that doesn't seem right to me. Somebody somewhere must have discussed this in writing before (else, where did I hear it from?).
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Re: WBR: NakedWine by AliceFeiring

by Hoke » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:06 am

Jeff Grossman/NYC wrote:Thanks, Hoke. I tried to Google that phrase but got nothing... that doesn't seem right to me. Somebody somewhere must have discussed this in writing before (else, where did I hear it from?).


Yeah. Heck, on this board...er, forum...alone I must have mentioned that numerous times. One of my faves. I love the phrase, and use it whenever I bloviate on about Italian wines in particular. Sadly, I've forgotten where I originally came across the term. Oh well, not the first (or last) time I borrowed something without worrying about accreditation, eh? :D
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Yup...

by TomHill » Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:45 am

Victorwine wrote:“Mixed blend” in Italian “campo miscela”. I think the concept of a Fukuoka vineyard is slightly different, not only do you have different grape varieties interplanted but other crops (potatoes, garlic, herbs, carrots, etc) as well. In a Fukuoka vineyard are the vines trellised?
Salute


Yup...they can be...least in the two I've seen. And I've seen pics of one where they're (low) head trained.
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Re: WBR: NakedWine by AliceFeiring

by James Roscoe » Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:20 am

Is it just me or is she one of those fundamentalist types who likes to find the facts to fit her arguments? I find that kind of writing very distracting (unless I agree with the writer, but that is my problem :roll: ).
Yes, and how many deaths will it take 'til he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
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Re: WBR: NakedWine by AliceFeiring

by Hoke » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:03 pm

James Roscoe wrote:Is it just me or is she one of those fundamentalist types who likes to find the facts to fit her arguments? I find that kind of writing very distracting (unless I agree with the writer, but that is my problem :roll: ).


It's not just you. I (gulp) agree with you.

My problem is not someone espousing a method/technique/approach/philosophy/vision---it's the trashing of anyone who doesn't subscribe to that particular vision that bothers me. Convince me of a new idea's efficacy; you don't have to tell me all those other guys who don't buy into it are evildoers.

And while I understand the appeal of so-called "natural wine", as well as the appropriation of the term 'naked wine', I still find it somewhat offensive that all of a sudden the vast majority of wine made over the centuries is then delegated to the category of "un-natural wine."
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Re: WBR: NakedWine by AliceFeiring

by Victorwine » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:56 pm

Thanks Tom and Hoke.

So the vines are not totally neglected and left on their own. The closest thing we got to a “true Fukuoka” vineyard is an abandon vineyard on Sound Ave (Route 48) in Cutchogue. (Unfortunately the owners I believe are going through an “ugly” long drawn divorce). The property is all fenced off and for several years now these vines were definitely “neglected”. Majority off the vines are dead, some (from what I could see) look like there just hanging on, bearing very little fruit.

Salute
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Re: WBR: NakedWine by AliceFeiring

by Hoke » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:05 pm

Victorwine wrote:Thanks Tom and Hoke.

So the vines are not totally neglected and left on their own. The closest thing we got to a “true Fukuoka” vineyard is an abandon vineyard on Sound Ave (Route 48) in Cutchogue. (Unfortunately the owners I believe are going through an “ugly” long drawn divorce). The property is all fenced off and for several years now these vines were definitely “neglected”. Majority off the vines are dead, some (from what I could see) look like there just hanging on, bearing very little fruit.

Salute



But....but....but....it's a return to NATURE!!!!

That may be the answer, Victor: let all the vines return to their natural wild state. We get what we get when we get it, and put the grapes into a pot (we'll call that the absolutely minimal intervention technique), let them naturally ferment, and then we can stand around and drink out of the pot, wiping the scum and fungus off the top as needed, before the wine turns entirely into vinegar. Naked wine! Natural Wine! Sans Souffre! All Fukuokued Up Wine!!!

Heck, I think I'll start up an LLC right now. Anyone wanta get in on this, I can send you a P.O. Box for your investment. I'm tellin' ya, this could be big. We'll have to be strident and evangelical about it though, to make sure we get undue attention.

:mrgreen:
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Well...

by TomHill » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:16 pm

Hoke wrote:
Victorwine wrote:Thanks Tom and Hoke.
So the vines are not totally neglected and left on their own. The closest thing we got to a “true Fukuoka” vineyard is an abandon vineyard on Sound Ave (Route 48) in Cutchogue. (Unfortunately the owners I believe are going through an “ugly” long drawn divorce). The property is all fenced off and for several years now these vines were definitely “neglected”. Majority off the vines are dead, some (from what I could see) look like there just hanging on, bearing very little fruit.

Salute



But....but....but....it's a return to NATURE!!!!

That may be the answer, Victor: let all the vines return to their natural wild state. We get what we get when we get it, and put the grapes into a pot (we'll call that the absolutely minimal intervention technique), let them naturally ferment, and then we can stand around and drink out of the pot, wiping the scum and fungus off the top as needed, before the wine turns entirely into vinegar. Naked wine! Natural Wine! Sans Souffre! All Fukuokued Up Wine!!!

Heck, I think I'll start up an LLC right now. Anyone wanta get in on this, I can send you a P.O. Box for your investment. I'm tellin' ya, this could be big. We'll have to be strident and evangelical about it though, to make sure we get undue attention.
:mrgreen:


Sorry, Hoke....I just sent a $hitload of $$'s to Nigeria. MissNettie promises I'll get the investment back ten-fold. Then I'll send it to you!!! :-)

There may be some benefit to an abandoned vnyd. MikeOfficer's TwoAcres was an abandoned vnyd that he resurrected from the dead and now makes a pretty impressive wine from
Tracey&Jared/Donkey&Goat discovered an abandoned Chard vnyd up in the AndersonVlly and now make a very good "Untended" Chard from it.
The first Fukuoka vnyd I saw was EmilioCastelli's in GreenVlly/RRV. When I first saw it, I thought "this looks like crap". But his Nebbiolo he gets from it is danged good.
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Re: WBR: NakedWine by AliceFeiring

by Steve Slatcher » Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:34 pm

Some years ago "minimal pruning", which sounds related in practice to Fukuoka if not in philosophy, was being touted by some as a promising approach, but you seem to hear little about it now. Was it discredited?
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Re: WBR: NakedWine by AliceFeiring

by Hoke » Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:55 pm

Steve Slatcher wrote:Some years ago "minimal pruning", which sounds related in practice to Fukuoka if not in philosophy, was being touted by some as a promising approach, but you seem to hear little about it now. Was it discredited?


I don't know about 'discredited', Steve, but there was lots of research down in Monterey by Doug Meador and some others on effective canopy management (and what was actually going on in the vine in regards to canopy management and diurnal growth, etc.) and by the Australian Peterson and his philosophy/approach of "the balanced vine"---that each vine has to be pruned to reach its own particular balance of leaf, stem, and fruit according to the soil, the climate, the root vigor and the clonal variety.

That's been pretty much the "accepted" catechism for several years now.
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Re: WBR: NakedWine by AliceFeiring

by SteveEdmunds » Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:37 pm

I don't like any of that stuff! It's SUPERNATURAL wine for me!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
I don't know just how I'm supposed to play this scene, but I ain't afraid to learn...
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Re: Alice's List...

by Dale Williams » Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:44 pm

TomHill wrote:In the back of her book, Alice provides a list of wines she likes and acknowledges it is an eccentric and personal list:

Once she acknowledges it's an eccentric and personal list, of course it's about style!

Going for ESJ and Arnot-Roberts, as well as leaving off ZH and Deiss, sounds like decent taste to me. But liking Coturri=-(shudder)

I think it's rather surprising that in all of Germany, she hasn't found a single wine she likes.


Does she say that, or you just inferring from a lack of listing?

In any case, I'm not generally a fan of her wriing, but I do think you;re a bit obsessed- probably 75% of the mentions of AF I see on wineboards come from you! :)
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Re: WBR: NakedWine by AliceFeiring

by Eric Texier » Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:16 pm

Steve Slatcher wrote:Some years ago "minimal pruning", which sounds related in practice to Fukuoka if not in philosophy, was being touted by some as a promising approach, but you seem to hear little about it now. Was it discredited?



I have been growing a community vineyard according to fukuoka/permaculture/agroecology principles for the past 10 years. Pruning is a very efficient way of controlling the yield therefore to be precise enough to express terroir/grape/vintage.

The yields we got from unpruned vines go from 3 hl/ha (2008) to 28 hl/ha (2009). A 1/9 ratio! How can one manage this an give an idea of terroir?
So we decided to for minimal pruning (dead wood) and/or "ébourgeonnage" (shoot pruning?).

Best

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Re: Alice's List...

by TomHill » Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:21 pm

Dale Williams wrote:
TomHill wrote:In the back of her book, Alice provides a list of wines she likes and acknowledges it is an eccentric and personal list:

Once she acknowledges it's an eccentric and personal list, of course it's about style!

But presumable none of them are "unnatural" producers, by her definition.


I think it's rather surprising that in all of Germany, she hasn't found a single wine she likes.


Does she say that, or you just inferring from a lack of listing?

She doesn't say that, I'm inferring it. Or maybe she likes some producers, but views their wines as not-natural.

In any case, I'm not generally a fan of her wriing, but I do think you;re a bit obsessed- probably 75% of the mentions of AF I see on wineboards come from you! :)


Uhhhh....Dale...maybe I just got the hots for Alice and just am trying to attract her attention!!!! :-)
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