Questions on Aging Vocabulary & Rielsing

I beg your indulgence but I figured I would avail myself of the assembled wisdom. Two questions:

1. In the common (wine geek) vernacular, when one says "this wine is worth following for XX years" are they referring to the vintage (date on the bottle) or from release (whenever that may be). I've always assumed the former since it's right there in print but something I read recently made me unsure. On a related issue, when said pundits give a window, say 2011-2025, can one intuit that a sweet spot is being suggested somewhere in the vague middle of that (i.e. 2011 is probably too frisky and 2025 can feel the soil falling over its head but keep your eyes peeled come 2015-2019)?

2. I know this is a huge "it depends" kind of question, but as a very, very rough rule of thumb when does a German Riesling start to exhibit the characteristics that very obviously differentiate it from its younger self? It would certainly seem that this is going to vary greatly not just across Prädikats and producers, but vintage as well. I've been well happy with all young (infantile?) Riesling that has been going down my gullet, and while I will never have the means/times/patience to stock up too much in the old cellar I've been curious about this supposed metamorphosis that it can go through. I was wanting to get a bottle of something with some age on it to see, splitting the cost with a fellow seeker, but was unsure how far along I should be looking for (5 year old Kabinett? 10 year old Kabinett? 10 year old Spätlese? etc.). Any suggestions for an available instructive bottle would be appreciated. Please bear in mind I have children and a mortgage so any suggestion of 50 year old auction Trockenbeerenauslese will garner nothing but weepy doe eyes from yours truly.

[David M. Bueker]

It depends...

[David M. Bueker]

Seriously though, given that most Rieslings are released only about a year from their vintage it really doesn't matter whether a reviewer is referring to vintage or release in an aging curve. Combine that with the fact that predicting a wine's aging potential is like guessing who is going to win the olympic gold in figure skating two olympics from now, and it's just not something to worry about.

As for #2 - GENERALLY I find that kabinetts start to show development from age 5-7 (from vintage!), spatlese at age 7-10 and auslese from 12+. That's from nominally good storage. Mediocre storage (or sitting on a retail shelf in a cool shop) advances those curves, and great storage (e.g. the glacial cellar) slows them down even more.

It depends...

Ba da bing! Ladies and gentlemen David will be here all week!

Seriously though thanks for the input. I think wines in the range you list are something I should be able to clap hands on just to see what's what, though no that I think of it I have a JJ Prum '03 I got a couple of years ago....

On a related issue, when said pundits give a window, say 2011-2025, can one intuit that a sweet spot is being suggested somewhere in the vague middle of that (i.e. 2011 is probably too frisky and 2025 can feel the soil falling over its head but keep your eyes peeled come 2015-2019)?

David covered the other stuff but I wanted to put a plug in for not taking these windows too seriously.

As opposed to one 'sweet spot' being intuited, I would rather interpret the windows as a range of good drinking that will vary in sweet-spot-ness depending on palate preferences.

And then of course there's the usual caveats about these windows being pure guesswork.

[David M. Bueker]

And by the way, Prum's wines take longer than just about anyone's to show age. I migbht double the predicted windows if I were talking Prum.

Seriously though, given that most Rieslings are released only about a year from their vintage it really doesn't matter whether a reviewer is referring to vintage or release in an aging curve.

True enough, but not all wines are Rieslings. And sometimes I think reviewers refer to the number of years after they taste it, which may be after release.

I don't know the answer to this bit of Kelly's question, but I would ask reviewers and producers to specify a range of dates (e.g. 2015-2020) rather than a range of years from some unknown date (e.g. in the next 5-10 years). It's no more difficult, and we will all understand.

[David M. Bueker]

Seriously though, given that most Rieslings are released only about a year from their vintage it really doesn't matter whether a reviewer is referring to vintage or release in an aging curve.

True enough, but not all wines are Rieslings. And sometimes I think reviewers refer to the number of years after they taste it, which may be after release.

I don't know the answer to this bit of Kelly's question, but I would ask reviewers and producers to specify a range of dates (e.g. 2015-2020) rather than a range of years from some unknown date (e.g. in the next 5-10 years). It's no more difficult, and we will all understand.

Good point, as after reading both questions I mentally turned them both towards Riesling. I mean what else would you want to drink?

I mean what else would you want to drink?

German Rieslings, perhaps?

[David M. Bueker]

I mean what else would you want to drink?

German Rieslings, perhaps?

Austrian and Alsatian Riesling are ok as well.

Hi Kelly -

As a recommendation for an "instructive" example of an aged Spätlese - I took a quick look, and saw that MacArthur in DC has the 1997 Kruger-Rumpf Munsterer Pittersberg Spätlese for $30. I had this wine a year ago, and really enjoyed it. Hope this helps.

Good point, as after reading both questions I mentally turned them both towards Riesling. I mean what else would you want to drink?

I probably muddied the waters on this. My first question was in the generic, the second was specific to German Riesling (though I accept that they might apply to Alsatian & Austrian too).

I like Steve's point above. I do know of at least one importer that spells out the drinking window in those specific terms.

Thanks Andrew, I'll make a trip over to MacArthur's for that.

Dry Riesling or Mosel Riesling?

Cheers,
Bill

[David M. Bueker]

Dry Riesling or Mosel Riesling?

Cheers,
Bill

How about dry Mosel Riesling?

Dry Riesling or Mosel Riesling?

Cheers,
Bill

How about dry Mosel Riesling?

Yes, a category that grows exponentially with every new vintage. If not for export markets (and elderly Germans), sweetish Mosel Riesling would hardly be produced at all. I sure can't find any.

Cheers,
Bill

If not for export markets (and elderly Germans), sweetish Mosel Riesling would hardly be produced at all.

And more's the pity.

[David M. Bueker]

If not for export markets (and elderly Germans), sweetish Mosel Riesling would hardly be produced at all.

And more's the pity.

Indeed. The German market has themselves convinced that dry=good and sweet=bad. What a waste of an opportunity to really get behind some of the most drinkable and versatile (yes, I mean it) wines in the world. A world without off-dry and sweeter German Riesling would be a humorless place (hmm...sounds a lot like Germany).

Oh, the Germans like humor, but of a different sort. Dry humor doesn't really work but physical comedy (like if a guy falls out of a helicopter without a parachute) puts them on the floor with laughter.

Cheers,
Bill

Dry humor doesn't really work...

except when it does.

...but physical comedy (like if a guy falls out of a helicopter without a parachute) puts them on the floor with laughter.

except when it doesn't.

Yes, a category that grows exponentially with every new vintage. If not for export markets (and elderly Germans), sweetish Mosel Riesling would hardly be produced at all. I sure can't find any.

Cheers,
Bill

So are we looking at an endangered species? I know Germans aren't the biggest market for the sweetish Mosel riesling, but surely there are enough of us thirsty folks abroad to keep the business going. Are top growers getting less excited about their off-dry wines?

Surely, it would be for the best if the Germans developed a dry sense of humor and kept producing sweet wines?

Dry humor doesn't really work...

except when it does.

...but physical comedy (like if a guy falls out of a helicopter without a parachute) puts them on the floor with laughter.

except when it doesn't.

Yes, Yes,I take it back, Rahsaan,

The Germans are a people known especially for razor-sharp wit and dust-dry humor. I expect a talented group of German comedians to take the world by storm in the coming months. They will finally teach us all to laugh. And to dance while they are at it!

And Americans aren't all overweight, SUV-driving, gun-nuts who either come from New York, Texas or California? Please!

Cheers,
Bill

Yes, a category that grows exponentially with every new vintage. If not for export markets (and elderly Germans), sweetish Mosel Riesling would hardly be produced at all. I sure can't find any.

Cheers,
Bill

So are we looking at an endangered species? I know Germans aren't the biggest market for the sweetish Mosel riesling, but surely there are enough of us thirsty folks abroad to keep the business going. Are top growers getting less excited about their off-dry wines?

I don't think that the top-growers (or at least the top-growers with established export markets) are going to abandon sweetish wines anytime soon, but I bet that they make fewer of them and more dry wines than they used to and the rest of the field, including some up-and comers are absolutely drifting dry.

I posted this on another site pertaining to acidity, but I think it works here too:

Sweetness was first used as a way to balance this acidity and cover up flaws such as botrytis and vinegar in the bunches. In fact, one of the reasons why dry wines seem to be on the upswing in Germany (an understatement) is because of the advancements made in viticulture to bring in healthier, cleaner fruit. To showcase or show-off this new commitment to quality, folks are making drier wines –wines in which flaws are harder to conceal and also thought to (perhaps incorrectly, perhaps not) provide a more transparent window to terroir.

The Mosel is a bit of a holdout because of the export strength, but there is no question that within Germany, Rheinhessen, Baden and the Pfalz are more popular and sweet wines are slim pickins in these areas.

Cheers,
Bill

Yes, Yes,I take it back, Rahsaan,

The Germans are a people known especially for razor-sharp wit and dust-dry humor. I expect a talented group of German comedians to take the world by storm in the coming months.

I think their language is bigger hindrance than any lack of comedic talent in becoming the next global comedic phenomenon. English is currently the only way to become truly global.

I don't know about your experiences, but I've met the same range of personality traits and humor styles in Germany as I have in every other country.