Re 2010 Bordeaux pricing

[Jenise]

Per the Shanken daily booze rag:

Bordeaux’s 2010 futures campaign looks to be in crescendo this week, as first-growth châteaus Margaux and Mouton-Rothschild finally released their prices, along with several other prominent players, according to the latest report in Wine Spectator. Châteaus Latour, Lafite Rothschild and Haut-Brion have yet to offer their wines.

The trend of campaign, which has seen most chateaus posting price increases of 10 to 20 percent over the ‘09s (which at the time was the most expensive futures campaign in history), continued with Margaux and Mouton, as both wines offered ex-négociant at 600 euros per bottle (or about $860), up from 550 euros for the ‘09s. Major négociant houses reported solid sales for the first growth wines. (The ex-négociant price includes the negociant’s markup. By the time the wine goes through an importer, distributor and retailer for American consumers, the price will rise even further.)

“There is solid buying interest in Margaux, as well as for Pavillon Rouge (the estate’s second wine),” said Mathieu Chadronnier, general director of CVBG, one of Bordeaux’s major négociant houses. “For Mouton, the interest is clearly there as well.”

Less expected were decreases taken by two prominent second growths, Château Cos-d’Estournel in St.-Estèphe (198 euros, down from 215) and Château Ducru-Beaucaillou in St.-Julien (150 euros, down from 180 for the 2009). While both came out with lower prices, buying interest did not seem to increase despite the wines’ potentially classic quality.

Jenise, this has been discussed on a couple of other wine boards and the conclusion is that China is the destination of a great percentage of the classified wines from Bordeaux. The wine store I have an interest in is located in Manhattan Beach a very upscale neighborhood, but we aren't even offering futures because there is no interest at the prices prevailing.

Let the market speak - once the wines are in bottle and released, let's see just how many are selling at those prices. Lafite aside, I don't see the market clearing for a lot of these top-tier wines.

Considering that greats like 82 Cos and Gruaud Larose are now in the same price range or cheaper than the recent releases, there's got to be a market correction some time soon.

Meanwhile - what about all those 02s/04s/06s/07s/08s that are sitting unsold?

[David M. Bueker]

I never thought I would say this, but 2010 Bordeaux futures are making the Guigal La Las look like good values.

Ha, David, you wrote:

>>>I never thought I would say this, but 2010 Bordeaux futures are making the Guigal La Las look like good values.

Funny you should say that!
I splurged on Thursday.
I saw a bottle of 2007 La Landonne (Côte Rôtie) from Guigal for 174 euros.
I hemmed, and I hawed, and I did a little dance around it and went away and came back a couple again of times - like it was a beautiful woman tempting me, but it was forbidden fruit and all that.
And then I let myself be seduced.
Bought an Alsace, a 2008 Riesling Schlossberg from Domaine Weinbach on the same occasion.

Now, 174 euros is a lot of money. But when I see the prices of the better classified growth Bordeaux these days I ask myself: isn't this a better deal in comparison?

All I ask - and I know it is VERY MUCH of an uphill battle - is that people think about what they mean by the word "Bordeaux".

A maximum of 5% of Bordeaux wine comes within the classified growth (and assimilated estates) category.
And yet....
so many people confuse this exalted category with the vast majority of wine produced within the Bordeaux region.

People are shocked that Pontet Canet should raise their prices by 40% from one year to the next (2009 to 2010), or that Pavillon Rouge de Château Margaux should double in price.
But this is NOT a reflection of the cost of Bordeaux wine. This is a reflection of demand for Bordeaux wines in the "luxury goods" category.
They are not typical, and it is grossly unfair to lump the reasonably-priced wines - the great majority - in with the somewhat greedy great growths.

Of course, David, I'm not saying you've done this. I was mostly thinking of the header of Jenise's post.
My friends who make good wine that sells for 8 and 10 euros a bottle retail are in a different universe from the Figeacs and Pichon Longuevilles and Haut Brions.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Of course, David, I'm not saying you've done this. I was mostly thinking of the header of Jenise's post.
My friends who make good wine that sells for 8 and 10 euros a bottle retail are in a different universe from the Figeacs and Pichon Longuevilles and Haut Brions.

Best regards,
Alex R.

I've just been reading a FT article by Jancis R in which she comments that Bordeaux has almost disappeared from UK restaurant wine list except for the most classic establishments. She goes on to say -

It’s easy to see why restaurant owners are wary of serious bordeaux that has to be bought young and matured for years before it’s ready to drink, but more difficult to see why the many bargains in the lower ranks are ignored, especially since red bordeaux is, quintessentially, a wine to be drunk with food. Perhaps it is partly because it can be difficult to identify the stars in the vast firmament of lesser bordeaux, and also because the wine companies that specialise in supplying restaurants have given up on the hauteur associated with France’s biggest fine wine region.

I would also add that this applies to a lot of wine merchants, even here in Belgium where there is a strong Bordeaux tradition. The Bordeaux trade does really need to address this issue, because we consumers are failing to access a lot of probably very attractive and reasonably priced wine and producers of such wines are suffering economically..

Sorry for a mostly "me too" post.

I agree with Jancis, and agree with you, Tim.

The fairest thing would be (pardon the pipe dream, please...), for some of the quasi-obscene profits made by the top châteaux to be plowed back into generic promotion.

Another way to help things would be for classified growths to come out of their ivory tower and make wine in less exalted, and more affordable appellations.

Other than their second wines, Lafite, Latour, Haut Brion, and Mouton all have négociant offshoots and/or petits châteaux.

Slowly, but surely, there is much more concentration of vineyard ownership. This will mostly help things IMHO. But their is much, much work to be done, prejudices to be overcome, and tastings to be arranged.

Best regards,
Alex R.

[David M. Bueker]

Slowly, but surely, there is much more concentration of vineyard ownership. This will mostly help things IMHO. But their is much, much work to be done, prejudices to be overcome, and tastings to be arranged.

Unfortunately, as the importation/distribution channels consolidate there is less and less opportunity for anything other than the "top chateaux" to be exported to markets where those prejudices exist and those tastings are needed.

David,

I would like to think you may be wrong there, but I'm not claiming anything one way or the other.

Trends come and go.

Maybe affordable Bordeaux's (in the largest sense of the word) day will come.
Maybe not.

Time will tell .

All the best,
Alex R.

[David M. Bueker]

Beyond distribution I think a major problem is that neither Cabernet nor Merlot is "in" right now. If there was easy access to affordable, high quality Pinot Noir it would be flying off the shelves, as Pinot's day has not yet passed.

Fads come and go. Cab and Merlot will come back.

David,

I would like to think you may be wrong there, but I'm not claiming anything one way or the other.

Trends come and go.

Maybe affordable Bordeaux's (in the largest sense of the word) day will come.
Maybe not.

Time will tell .

All the best,
Alex R.

There are many good wines outside of the classified growths and a handful that have made a name that are not classified. The problem is that they are competing with many, many, other wines from regons all over the world that are more established than unknowns from Bordeaux. I personally think the Bordeaux unknowns are probably of better quality but merchants are going to carry what sells best. The people in Bordeaux have some work set out for them. I hate to say this but if Parker would feature a comprehensive section of "fine" Bordeauxs that nobody has heard of it would go a long way for the wine buying public.

[David M. Bueker]

I hate to say this but if Parker would feature a comprehensive section of "fine" Bordeauxs that nobody has heard of it would go a long way for the wine buying public.

And I hate to say this, but including Sauternes & dry white wines (because I could not figure an easy search to exclude them), there were 453 wines from 2010 Bordeaux reviewed in the April 30 edition of the Wine Advocate.

In other words, Parker is not the problem, nor the solution. Plenty of wines get reviewed. People still only buy meaningful quantities from about 150 of them.

The last 1% of quality costs twice as much. I suspect that's an understatement (and in the same breath, utterly meaningless)

I'm more than satisfied that there are great wines out there that aren't yet commoditised. I still have a few bottles of classed growth Bdx, but I'm effectively out of that market for the foreseeable future. Those I have will emerge from the cellar in time and I'm sure I'll enjoy them, but the same will be said of the Vouvrays, Cahors, Vino Nobile, Coonawarra, Hawkes Bay, Taurasi, etc.

On top of that, I fear for the expectation hanging like a noose over a €200+ bottle of wine.

I hate to say this but if Parker would feature a comprehensive section of "fine" Bordeauxs that nobody has heard of it would go a long way for the wine buying public.

And I hate to say this, but including Sauternes & dry white wines (because I could not figure an easy search to exclude them), there were 453 wines from 2010 Bordeaux reviewed in the April 30 edition of the Wine Advocate.

In other words, Parker is not the problem, nor the solution. Plenty of wines get reviewed. People still only buy meaningful quantities from about 150 of them.

Much lesser wines are listed on the same page as Angelus and Ausone. What I was writing about would be a totally separate section. The question is academic because it's not going to happen. By the way there are no prices shown for any wine from the 2010 vintage. I guarantee eventually Parker will show the prices on all the known labels for the 2010 vintage but not necessarily the lesser known wineries.
I know it makes many people unhappy but Parker has been responsible for selling a vast no. of bottles of wine. I'm not a disciple of his personal palate but I cannot argue with what I know as an absolute fact that his endorsement sells wine.

David,

You wrote:

"And I hate to say this, but including Sauternes & dry white wines (because I could not figure an easy search to exclude them), there were 453 wines from 2010 Bordeaux reviewed in the April 30 edition of the Wine Advocate."

453 isn't very many David...

There are well in excess of 6,000 wine châteaux in Bordeaux, not to mention the brands.

Parker has only scratched the surface, and concentrated on the expensive wines.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Alex
One of the great shames in UK (and I suspect the US), is that there's no longer any good all-rounder annual guides to French wine in English, as the Hachette guide used to be. Whilst I never seemed to find my tastes matching to theirs, at least it always flagged a much wider range of wineries, which in itself is something.

regards

Ian

[David M. Bueker]

David,

You wrote:

"And I hate to say this, but including Sauternes & dry white wines (because I could not figure an easy search to exclude them), there were 453 wines from 2010 Bordeaux reviewed in the April 30 edition of the Wine Advocate."

453 isn't very many David...

There are well in excess of 6,000 wine châteaux in Bordeaux, not to mention the brands.

Parker has only scratched the surface, and concentrated on the expensive wines.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Alex - Tell me why he should not concentrate on the 150+ most expensive wines. Tell me why writing about another 150 (more actually) less exalted wines is something to criticize rather than appreciate. Tell me why any American writer should spend time writing about wines that will never come to the USA.

I would love to try the breadth of Bordeaux's offerings, but the only way to do that is to travel to Bordeaux. The winemakers of Bordeaux continually look outside for the solution to their problem. Might they look inward to see what causes their wines to be ignored? Perhaps? Maybe?

What has the owner/winemaker of Hourtin Ducasse or Cambon la Pelouse done differently to have their wines make these shores? Why won't others do the same.

Lou - how is Parker supposed to list prices when the prices were not announced in April?

David,

You wrote:

"And I hate to say this, but including Sauternes & dry white wines (because I could not figure an easy search to exclude them), there were 453 wines from 2010 Bordeaux reviewed in the April 30 edition of the Wine Advocate."

453 isn't very many David...

There are well in excess of 6,000 wine châteaux in Bordeaux, not to mention the brands.

Parker has only scratched the surface, and concentrated on the expensive wines.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Lou - how is Parker supposed to list prices when the prices were not announced in April?

David don't be so literal, I know that you sound like an engineer. In parenthesis--(guestimation)

[David M. Bueker]

Lou,

What way did you mean your comment to be taken? Other than literally it makes no sense. Or was that your intention?

David,

You wrote:
"Tell me why he should not concentrate on the 150+ most expensive wines"

- because not everybody is rich
- because many people, even rich people, seek good, but more ordinary and less expensive wines
- because Bordeaux produces many of these

You then ask:
"Tell me why writing about another 150 (more actually) less exalted wines is something to criticize rather than appreciate".
Not sure I follow the logic of this sentence (did you mean it the other way around?).
For sure, the world of wine is so huge that each region can only be treated in so much depth. Fair enough. All I'm saying is that it's too heavily weighted towards the great growths by Parker, as well as many other critics.
5% of production gets how much coverage?
We need some affirmative action here!!!

Your final question is:
"Tell me why any American writer should spend time writing about wines that will never come to the USA"
Interesting and valid point.
First of all, although Parker started out as an American phenomenon, he now sets the standards for wines, especially Bordeaux, around the world. His book sales outside the US, for instance, are enormous, as is his influence on purchases in London, Zurich, Hong Kong, etc.
Secondly, the name of his publication is "The Wine Advocate". I'd have thought that going off the well-beaten track was his job, as is recommending wines that represent good value for money. So it's really annoying to see all the gushing about the great growths and so little about wines that are certainly not as good, but are quite enjoyable and cost ***a tenth the price***!!!
As for the wines not being available in the US, you have a very valid point there. I think we've discussed this on another thread: about how many importers/distributors get cold feet about bringing in wines for which there is (presently) little market, so they don't bother, don't take the risk even if, let's say, a petit château is a real winner.
There's also what I'll call "cultural bagage" too. Certain reputations die hard. People still make sick jokes about antifreeze in Austrian wines, many people associate Germany with insipid Liebfraumilch, Australia with thick, heavy wines, etc., etc. The repuation of Bordeaux in the US is of an expensive, elite wine. And it just goes on sticking. Whatever.
"Fault finding" is not be the name of the game here, I agree with you entirely. What ought to be done is spending time, money, and energy promoting affordable Bordeaux in the United States.

You finish by commenting:
"The winemakers of Bordeaux continually look outside for the solution to their problem. Might they look inward to see what causes their wines to be ignored? Perhaps? Maybe?"
Yes, soul searching does need to be done. But I maintain that there are plenty of wines that get short shrift unfairly in the US, i.e. start out with a handicap they don't deserve. I'll admit that there is definitely a quality problem on the lower end, but know for a fact that the middle ground of good wines is simply enormous, as proved by imports of such wines by many other countries. In a nutshell, David, I'd say that it's more of a marketing problem in the US (the cursed confusion beween great growths and "Bordeaux"), and that modern marketing methods (PR, advertising, POS promotion, etc., etc.) is the best way to go.
Of course, the château system, invented in Bordeaux, is a double-edged sword because supplying wine from one estate to a market as big as the US is a tough call...

Best regards,
Alex R.

Alex
One of the great shames in UK (and I suspect the US), is that there's no longer any good all-rounder annual guides to French wine in English, as the Hachette guide used to be. Whilst I never seemed to find my tastes matching to theirs, at least it always flagged a much wider range of wineries, which in itself is something.

regards

Ian

I wonder why none of the French annual guides, e.g. RVF, Bettane/Desseauve, Hachette, are translated into English, whereas Gambero Rosso is translated into both English and German.

Tim,

I think there's a cultural barrier here too.
I'd explain it this way: most English-speaking consumers feel they need not so much a guide as a "mediator"
(that word is not meant to be uppity or demeaning in any way - I'll go on to say what it denotes).

For instance, David raises the point that recommendations should be for wines available on his market.
That rules out 80% of the wines in the Guide Hachette, for instance.
Therefore, a good guide for a consumer like him is one that covers wines imported and distributed in the US.
Makes sense, doesn't it?
The Guide Hachette (the best buyers guide to French wines, IMHO) is simply not useful to him.

An English-speaking "mediator" also expresses things in his native tongue with all sorts of references that mean something to consumers in a way that a French-speaking one simply cannot.
Having been in the translation business for 20 years, I know for a fact that translating, for instance, Bettane and Dessauve into English just won't work, however good the translation and adaptation.
This also makes me convinced that Parker's successor will be another English speaker. As absurd as it may seem, no French speaker could not be in the running.

Best regards,
Alex R.

[David M. Bueker]

Alex,

Let's get past generalities. Are any of the type of Bordeaux you champion actually in the USA? If so I would be willing to seek out a few bottles and set up a tastting.

[Robin Garr]

I'm surprised China hasn't come up in this discussion. It's my understanding that a large percentage of first growths in recent years has been going to the emerging Chinese wealthy class, and that this, as much as anything else and probably more than Parker, is responsible for the supply-demand spiral we're seeing.

Just one random Google hit ...

Demand for first growth Bordeaux has risen dramatically over the past ten years, particularly from China and the Far East. Prices for first growth wines start around £4,000 per case of 12 bottles.
http://www.bordeauxuk.com/first-growth-wines.htm