Top ten restaurant wine list mistakes?

[Robin Garr]

This article about the Top Ten Wine List Mistakes turned up on WineListUSA, which appears to be a restaurant wine sales blog. It's geared toward restaurant chains, but offers food for thought for indie restaurateurs and consumers as well.

What do you think? Would attention to these 10 points make you more likely to buy wine, or pay more for wine, in a restaurant that followed them?

http://winelistsusa.wordpress.com/2011/ ... -mistakes/

(Updated link address. This one should work permanently.)

[David M. Bueker]

Top ten wine list mistakes?

1. Sonoma-Cutrer Chard
2. White Zin
3. Santa Margawhatever Pinot Grigio
...shall I go on?

Absolutely, many of these would dramatically increase wine consumption at any given restaurant.

I'm not sure I'd be affected as much by the presence of $ signs, but I'll take the researcher's word for that.

Several of these points I harped on constantly---often to little response---with restaurateurs/listmakers.

The one I found most difficult was to get these people to understand that the strategic inclusion of some 'comfort zone' wines---wines with recognizable and trusted brand names the customers would identify with---would actually improve the response to their lists and increase sales. Not many, just a few, so the customer would not feel totally at sea when perusing the list.

But it still boggles my mind that some of the absolute basic concepts of a modern wine list aren't paid attention to. We used to call it "leaving money in the pockets"---because given the opportunity and the encouragement, the customers were usually eager to spend money to enhance their dining experience. But often they not only weren't encouraged to do so, the restaurant was actively putting up roadblocks in their way.

Top ten wine list mistakes?

1. Sonoma-Cutrer Chard
2. White Zin
3. Santa Margawhatever Pinot Grigio
...shall I go on?

Disagree, David.

You can have an extremely good wine list with a very few usual suspects providing a comfort zone, allowing the rest of the list to cater to people like you who have more esoteric tastes.

Why should people who enjoy a certain type of wine, and are willing to spend their money to enjoy it, and are just as good a customer as you, be prevented from enjoying those wines because of you? You are not required to order them, after all; and if there's enough depth on the rest of the list, what do you care anyway?

Unless, of course, you just like being a wine snob.

This article about the Top Ten Wine List Mistakes turned up on WineListUSA, which appears to be a restaurant wine sales blog. It's geared toward restaurant chains, but offers food for thought for indie restaurateurs and consumers as well.

What do you think? Would attention to these 10 points make you more likely to buy wine, or pay more for wine, in a restaurant that followed them?

http://winelistsusa.wordpress.com/#!/entry/90

Does this link still work? It directs me to an apparently unrelated post.

The most common mistake I see (other than vintages that don't correspond to what they have on stock) is the unbelievable, but perennial confustion between Mouton Cadet and Château Mouton Cadet and, on occasion, even Château Mouton Rothshcild.

And I'm not joking!

More esoteric is the frequent representation of St. Emilion grands crus as grands crus *classés*.

Best regards,
Alex R.

[David M. Bueker]

Unless, of course, you just like being a wine snob.

Well that's always fun. But my big issue (especially with #3) is the using of comfort choices to justify not just the 3x prices, but often 4 and 5x. That insipid Pinot Grigio goes for $60+ on some wine lists.

The most common mistake I see (other than vintages that don't correspond to what they have on stock) is the unbelievable, but perennial confustion between Mouton Cadet and Château Mouton Cadet and, on occasion, even Château Mouton Rothshcild..

Chateau Mouton Cadet? That's a new one to me.

Keith,
indeed the link goes to a post about why their list is better than Wine and Spirits*. If you click on WineLists in the left margin, will move you up to the post re winelists.

I think most of the list is good, although in some ways slightly contradictory (more under $50, more reserve, more, more, more)- most restaurants aren't looking to expand their investment in wine inventory that much. I love tasting pours, but then restaurant needs to be invested in preservation.

I believe David's point goes to #7. When you have Kendall Jackson Vintners Reserve At $45, Santa Marg at $60, etc the "comfort choices" become uncomfortable for the person who buys regularly at $9, $17, etc.


* re post below - I have no idea re W & S methodology, I've always been surprised by results, but they do choose a certain type of restaurant- mostly those in steakhouse, upscale bistro price range. But I don't think that WineLists criticism that " A Greek producer, Gaia Estate, was ranked 40th in popularity across all restaurants in the U.S.! When a Greek producer ranks higher than any New Zealand, Australian, Spanish and all but the top Argentine producer in what is supposed to be a representative survey of U.S. restaurants, it’s time to review your sampling procedures" is necessarily accurate. My reasoning is that upscale Greek dining has definitely increased in last decade. All of those restaurants tend to have substantial Greek offerings. Gaia Estate has wide distribution, moderate prices, easy to pronounce- it's on almost all of those lists, in whites, reds, and maybe roses. I'm sure more NZ, Australian, and Spanish wine is sold in moderately upscale restaurants, but would think much larger pool of producers represented.

[Robin Garr]

Does this link still work? It directs me to an apparently unrelated post.

Well, THAT is frustrating! Looks like it was a featured link of the day and has now change, Keith. But no worries, I found the permalink:

http://winelistsusa.wordpress.com/2011/ ... -mistakes/

I'll go back and edit the original.

i suppose i'm one of those 'wine snobs'. but there is a big tasting every year at which i try one or two sonoma cutrer chards; and honestly, they are pretty darned good.

11. Serving red wines hot (70F +). We are very cautious about buying red wine restaurants due to the uncertainty of the serving temperature. We recently ate in an upscale Italian restaurant in Chicago and were served a bottle of Valpolicella that had to have been close to 80F. I had them put it ice for 15 minutes.

12. Not having wines which appear on the wine list. We have had entire meals planned around a certain wine only to hear, "We're out of that one".

"We're out of that one".

Yeah, I sure as heck know that one.

Recently, they were out of one wine, so I ordered another. They were out of that too, so I ordered a replacement.
And I'll be (expletive deleted), they came back to say they were out of that one too!

Best regards,
Alex R.

Presence on a wine list and pricing are two entirely different issues.

On pricing, that is, price gouging, I totally and entirely agree with you.

Many restaurateurs still put together lists of totally unknown wines (albeit usually with fancy 'foreign' names) so they can charge ridiculously inflated prices, since the customer has no way of comparing prices, as they do with better-known names. Can't tell you how many times I was told "Oh, I can't put that on the list. It's too well known. People will know how much I'm charging them then."

[Robin Garr]

i suppose i'm one of those 'wine snobs'. but there is a big tasting every year at which i try one or two sonoma cutrer chards; and honestly, they are pretty darned good.

Sonoma-Cutrer is all over restaurant lists in Louisville. It is, or was, a Brown-Forman property. It's hard to avoid, and I've found it makes a perfectly good dinner option in a fair price range, particularly on lists that are either unexciting or overpriced. I don't get the hate.

Now, Santa Margherita Pinot Grigio, I do get the hate. I cannot understand the demand for this stuff, which I've consistently found to be lackin in quality and dramatically overpriced at retail and on wine lists.

Now, Santa Margherita Pinot Grigio, I do get the hate. I cannot understand the demand for this stuff, which I've consistently found to be lackin in quality and dramatically overpriced at retail and on wine lists.

Yeah, one of the great mysteries of the modern wine world how this stuff manages to stay popular.

I mean, I know the vast majority of people drink the vast majority of Pinot Grigio/Pinot Gris (with notable exceptions granted) drink it because its vapid and inconsequential---but Santa Margherita is that at its best. And usually its much worse than that. The stuff is execrable---yet it manages to stay on wine lists and fetch high prices. *scratching head*

[Robin Garr]

... yet it manages to stay on wine lists and fetch high prices. *scratching head*

For years I felt like this about Far Niente (lit., "It does nothing"), but I think it may have finally had its 15 hours, er, years of fame.

Pet peeves: leaving out vintages or showing the incorrect vintage. Lists that look like they were put together by a wine distributor for a restaurant where it is apparent no one knows or cares about wine (especially true in ethnic restaurants where there is not much native wine culture).

The dollar sign doesn't bother me, not so much as the size of the number following.

I agree that you might need to have a few popular standbys on the list, but a savvy place could use this as an educational tool to turn customers on to new wines. For instance, you could list a Sonoma-Cutrer Chard at 3x markup and then a Brun Beaujolas Blanc or a nice basic Chablis at 2x or 2.5x markup, with a blurb promoting it as another style of Chardonnay that may appeal to those who enjoy Sonoma-Cutrer. Gently nudge people from their comfort zone, and use attractive pricing as a tool.

[David M. Bueker]

Sonoma-Cutrer is all over restaurant lists in Louisville. It is, or was, a Brown-Forman property. It's hard to avoid, and I've found it makes a perfectly good dinner option in a fair price range, particularly on lists that are either unexciting or overpriced. I don't get the hate.

At least in my case do not think of it as hate, but rather being sick and tired of seeing it. I feel the same way about Seinfeld and Law & Order.

Pet peeves: leaving out vintages or showing the incorrect vintage. Lists that look like they were put together by a wine distributor for a restaurant where it is apparent no one knows or cares about wine (especially true in ethnic restaurants where there is not much native wine culture).

The dollar sign doesn't bother me, not so much as the size of the number following.

I agree that you might need to have a few popular standbys on the list, but a savvy place could use this as an educational tool to turn customers on to new wines. For instance, you could list a Sonoma-Cutrer Chard at 3x markup and then a Brun Beaujolas Blanc or a nice basic Chablis at 2x or 2.5x markup, with a blurb promoting it as another style of Chardonnay that may appeal to those who enjoy Sonoma-Cutrer. Gently nudge people from their comfort zone, and use attractive pricing as a tool.

I would absolutely agree with that, Joe.

Leaving Sonoma-Cutrer out of the discussion (disclaimer: I was involved with SCV for may years while employed with B-F, so I might be seen as partial to it. And I do believe it is pretty damned good for a CA/Sonoma Chardonnay--so do people like Aubert de Villaine, Morey, LeFlaive and some others who might have a little cred on Chard.), what you suggest is an ideal way to both offer some standard wines for people's comfort/familiarity zone while creating opportunities to educate/inform and lead people to new experiences in wine.

Sadly, most restaurants either don't know, or don''t care, or don't bother to learn anything about wine, and see it only as a primary profit center they can use to gouge money out of some people's pockets so they can supplement the other areas.

What's particularly vexing about this is it has been proven time and time and time again that more enlightened approaches to wine will yield not only better/more wine sales with better/more profit, but will enhance and burnish a restaurant's reputation and appeal immeasurably.

Any sort of creative promotion---pricing, discounting, features, specials, creative presentations, gentle education, etc.---can yield so much better results; yet we see the same tired old approaches over and over and over again. sigh

[James Roscoe]

My daughter is in on-premise wine sales in Charleston, SC for one of the larger distributers there. Most of the major restaurants downtown are her accounts. I have given her the link for this article. It will be interesting to see what she thinks about this article. I find it pretty illustrative although some of the other complaints raised, such as the lack of current vintages, are also frustrating for the knowledgable wine drinker.

11. Serving red wines hot (70F +). We are very cautious about buying red wine restaurants due to the uncertainty of the serving temperature. We recently ate in an upscale Italian restaurant in Chicago and were served a bottle of Valpolicella that had to have been close to 80F. I had them put it ice for 15 minutes.

Amen, amen, amen, and amen!!!

[Robin Garr]

I feel the same way about Seinfeld and Law & Order.

...the average by-the-glass is 23.

What planet are they on? Only fancy restos have 23 wines by the glass. I count myself lucky if there's more than 4 of each color!

Other than that, the list is generally sensible. I do find it funny to say that there aren't enough reserve wines (#6) because, since I have fine wines at home, I refuse to 'pay up' for expensive bottles when I'm out. But that would be different if I weren't a wine geek, I suppose.

Jeff,
I've been thinking the same thing! I live in Tel Aviv, and I can only think of one wine BAR that has 23 wines available by the glass. NO restaurant, even the very best that I've been to have that many available for by the glass ordering. Personally, I think 10-12 is okay, if they're a good variety.
Best,
Joel