The place for all things wine, focused on serious wine discussions.

Anyone know about Alsace Rieslings?

Moderators: Jenise, Robin Garr, David M. Bueker

no avatar
User

David Mc

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

205

Joined

Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:20 am

Location

Washington DC -- Maryland Suburbs

Anyone know about Alsace Rieslings?

by David Mc » Fri May 20, 2011 11:48 am

Trick question as I know there are a bunch of Riesling gurus on the board.

Anyway, being a relative newcomer to wine, I have been slowly drinking myself around the world to better understand wine regions, makers and styles. The last time I frequented MacArthurs, I asked the kind wine consultant to recommend an representative Alsace Riesling. After I politely rebuffed his first selection of Trimbach (I haven't had much luck with them), he recommended Domain Zind-Humbrecth ($22).

I was expecting the normal sweet watery mess of the previous Rieslings I've had (mostly US, a few German). But when I took the first sip, clouds parted, the sun shined down on me and angles sang (the same thing happened when I tried a Vouvray). WOW! I love this wine!

My question is: how much variety is there in the Alsace Rieslings? Are they all similar to Zind-Humbrecth? With Germany only a vineyard away, are there Alsace-style German Rieslings? Are these the trocken ones?

Thanks,

David
no avatar
User

Howie Hart

Rank

The Hart of Buffalo

Posts

6389

Joined

Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:13 pm

Location

Niagara Falls, NY

Re: Anyone know about Alsace Rieslings?

by Howie Hart » Fri May 20, 2011 1:14 pm

Hi David - Perhaps you missed the April Wine Focus thread. Here is a link: http://www.wineloverspage.com/forum/village/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=38369
Chico - Hey! This Bottle is empty!
Groucho - That's because it's dry Champagne.
no avatar
User

David M. Bueker

Rank

Childless Cat Dad

Posts

36369

Joined

Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:52 am

Location

Connecticut

Re: Anyone know about Alsace Rieslings?

by David M. Bueker » Fri May 20, 2011 1:22 pm

David Mc wrote:My question is: how much variety is there in the Alsace Rieslings? Are they all similar to Zind-Humbrecth? With Germany only a vineyard away, are there Alsace-style German Rieslings? Are these the trocken ones?


Well I am not sure what kind of advice I can offer you, as I consider virtually all ZH RIeslings to be overripe, alcoholic messes, but if you are looking for dry wines (was the ZH Riesling dry? not always the case) then the upper level Trimabch (not the yellow label) are amazing wines. I f you have tried them and not been impressed then opt for something like the Domaine Weinbach Riesling Schlossberg or Schlossberg Cuvee Ste Catherine.

Alsace-styled German Rieslings? Again depends on how you frame that. Do you just mean dry, or do you mean more than that?
Decisions are made by those who show up
no avatar
User

Kelly Young

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

473

Joined

Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:37 pm

Location

Washington, DC

Re: Anyone know about Alsace Rieslings?

by Kelly Young » Fri May 20, 2011 1:26 pm

There are certainly some very experienced tippler here who can chime in with the straight dope, I'll just add my two bits as a fan of Riesling and Alsatian wine, tyro though I may be. There is quite a bit of variety in the Alsace interpretation of Riesling, though the much of it tends towards the drier end of the spectrum (but keep in mind the late harvest options, they can be out of this world!). Like you I have not had much luck with Trimbach Riesling (both Yellow Capsule and the more expensive Cuvee Fredrick Emile). I find them austere to mean and generally not very happy and in need of some sort of therapy. Zind Humbrecht is definitely a mark of quality producer (probably because I'm an overripe alcoholic mess). I live near Weygandt Wines (Cleveland Park) so I often avail myself of the Albert Mann wines. You can do a really interesting experiment by comparing the Mann Grand Cru Schlossberg to the Mann Grand Cru Furstentum (they're both a bit dear being in the $40 range, but what price do you put on science?). One's leaner and meaner, though maybe with more mineral, the other is more robust in a let's call out the band and get down with some wine drinking style. There's a certain spiciness that appears in many of the Alsatian wines I like. If you've been happy with Alsace Riesling definitely give Pinot Gris a go.

I find that in General German Rielsing is a different kettle of fish. There are the Trocken (Dry) varieties you asked about, but it always seems to me to be a different spin on the grape, though a spin I really like. That said I think you'd like some of those offerings. I have a very nice Selbach Oster Zeltinger Himmelreich Riesling Kabinett Halbtrocken (you can dig around for my notes on that) recently. Also in the German world of Rielsing it is possible for there to be some, or even a lot, of sweetness there and it be anything but a mess but that's maybe a separate discussion.

Greetings from Mt. P.
no avatar
User

Dale Williams

Rank

Compassionate Connoisseur

Posts

12045

Joined

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:32 pm

Location

Dobbs Ferry, NY (NYC metro)

Re: Anyone know about Alsace Rieslings?

by Dale Williams » Fri May 20, 2011 1:48 pm

I'm more a Trimbach guy than a ZH (though I do sometimes enjoy a ZH from more aromatic grapes). In my rough mental style chart from most austere to most opulent, I'd do something like
Trimbach
Trapet
Hugel
Barmes-Buecher
Mann
Boxler
Weinbach
Deiss
Zind Humbrecht

If you really like ZH, you might look at those at that end of spectrum.
90% of the Alsace I drink is Trimbach, so my impressions of others might be off, I await corrections!
no avatar
User

Bill Hooper

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

2001

Joined

Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:46 am

Location

McMinnville, OR

Re: Anyone know about Alsace Rieslings?

by Bill Hooper » Fri May 20, 2011 2:01 pm

Let me first say that I too don’t think of Zind-Humbrecht as representative of most Alsace Riesling. But I think that there is a time and a place for it.

It is impossible to duplicate Alsatian Riesling in another country or region (that whole Terroir thing), but your question is a good one. Once upon a time and up until around the 1940s, all Riesling (from Germany, Alsace and Austria) was pretty much produced the same way. That is to say (very simply stated) it was harvested selectively or not so selectively, given a couple of hours or even a couple of days of skin-contact, pressed off the skins, the must was allowed to settle by gravity, it was racked into another wood barrel where it would’ve fermented by way of wild yeasts. Depending on the yeasts, the cellar temperature, the amount of sugar present in the grapes and other variables the fermentation would take anywhere from a couple of days to 9 or 10 months to complete. Depending upon the temperature of the cellars and amount of malic and other acids in the grapes, the wine would or would not go through a malolactic fermentation. It was racked again after the primary fermentation, perhaps fined and given a final dose of sulfur, perhaps it was racked for a third time before bottling (if it was bottled at all.) And there you have it. Sweet wine was produced when nature allowed it to be produced, but far more often than not, Riesling was made dry.

After WW2, Germany and Alsace (separated for the final time) diverged stylistically in significant ways. Germany set out to conquer and tame its unique challenges in typical German fashion with science and technology. A generally cooler climate with more rain produced grapes with lower alcohol, more problems with botrytis, and higher acidity. Stainless steel tanks, cultivated yeast-strains, temperature control, filtration, and chemical additions all did their part to add some measure of safety and certainty to the wines, and also helped to harness and ultimately change the weaknesses to strengths (high acidity helps to balance out sweetness. Botrytis, when clean, can give added dimension and flavor to wine. Cultured yeasts can add bouquet and aroma that play well with Rieslings pure fruit and mineral flavors.)

Alsace stayed its course for a while, but in time many of the producers have come to embrace the same changes that Germany did earlier (and in turn, there are German producers who are returning to a more traditional approach in the cellars.) So the line has become blurred as of late especially as Germany has been making more dry Riesling.
I can say with certainty though, that there isn’t a single producer in Germany who would like his wines to be called Alsatian-Styled, just as a Mosel producer wouldn’t want his wines to be called Pfalz-styled or vice versa.

Cheers,
Bill
Wein schenkt Freude
ITB paetrawine.com
no avatar
User

ChaimShraga

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

663

Joined

Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:53 am

Location

Tel-Aviv, Israel

Re: Anyone know about Alsace Rieslings?

by ChaimShraga » Fri May 20, 2011 2:30 pm

This discussion seems to be more interesting that the Alsace thread itself. Of the Alsatian wines available in Israel, Albert Mann is my favorite, really being in the middle of the two extremes that Dale outlined.
Positive Discrimination For White Wines!
http://2GrandCru.blogspot.com
no avatar
User

Rahsaan

Rank

Wild and Crazy Guy

Posts

9802

Joined

Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:20 pm

Location

New York, NY

Re: Anyone know about Alsace Rieslings?

by Rahsaan » Sat May 21, 2011 11:17 am

David Mc wrote:I was expecting the normal sweet watery mess of the previous Rieslings I've had (mostly US, a few German). But when I took the first sip, clouds parted, the sun shined down on me and angles sang (the same thing happened when I tried a Vouvray). WOW! I love this wine!


Something tells me this thread is all about small sample sizes. Not liking sweet messy wines but liking ZH? Perhaps you like 'em thicker as opposed to watery? Or did you get the one crisp ZH wine?

It might be more useful if you told us exactly what you liked about the wine you had, and then you can get advice across producers and regions to find the ones you would like.
no avatar
User

Dale Williams

Rank

Compassionate Connoisseur

Posts

12045

Joined

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:32 pm

Location

Dobbs Ferry, NY (NYC metro)

Re: Anyone know about Alsace Rieslings?

by Dale Williams » Sat May 21, 2011 9:12 pm

Deiss is not my favorite, but this price on the 04 Grasberg is actually very good if you count the free shipping, and if one like ZH might be worth the experiment

http://cinderellawine.com/
no avatar
User

Tim York

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

4979

Joined

Tue May 09, 2006 2:48 pm

Location

near Lisieux, France

Re: Anyone know about Alsace Rieslings?

by Tim York » Sun May 22, 2011 4:23 am

Another important point is that, with most Alsatian producers, it is impossible to tell how sweet or dry the wine will be without prior tasting or reliable advice. Zind-Humbrecht is an exception with each label showing an "indice" from 1 ("bone dry") to 5 (sweet); some other producers, e.g. René Muré and Loew, also have systems but each is different. I put quotes round "bone dry" in the ZH case because I have had Indice 1 wines that struck me as having slight sweetness; in other words, like elsewhere, there is a sweetwards drift in the application of the term "dry".

Because of the doubt on sweetness/dryness in the case of most Alsatian producers, I will not order an untasted or reliably recommended Alsace white without an "indice" or equivalent or a known house style, e.g. Trimbach is reliably dry.

Similar doubt exists with many producers of Vouvray and Montlouis.
Tim York
no avatar
User

David Mc

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

205

Joined

Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:20 am

Location

Washington DC -- Maryland Suburbs

Re: Anyone know about Alsace Rieslings?

by David Mc » Mon May 23, 2011 12:31 pm

Thanks for all of the advice. My sample size of Riesling is very small and I mostly didn't like them (because I was uninformed when I bought them and tended to buy on lower price). I was really blow away by the ZH, probably because I favor the opulent wines (all categories). I have had the Trimbach (both Riesling and Gewurtz) but they didn't excite me (same with Hugel) because I don't prefer the austere (as per Dale's description) wines. But I'm willing to give them a fare shake again so I'm heading out to buy the spectrum that Dale listed and do my own survey.

As a side note, I had Weinbach Gewurtz last night (on the recommendation from the wine consultant as to a representative style of Alsatian Gewurtz). It was certainly opulent and high on alcohol (14%) and I did not enjoy it one bit. I guess I just don't like Gewurtz (actually, I did have an CA Gewurtz that I enjoyed, Arista).

Dave
no avatar
User

Kelly Young

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

473

Joined

Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:37 pm

Location

Washington, DC

Re: Anyone know about Alsace Rieslings?

by Kelly Young » Mon May 23, 2011 1:22 pm

David Mc wrote:
As a side note, I had Weinbach Gewurtz last night (on the recommendation from the wine consultant as to a representative style of Alsatian Gewurtz). It was certainly opulent and high on alcohol (14%) and I did not enjoy it one bit. I guess I just don't like Gewurtz (actually, I did have an CA Gewurtz that I enjoyed, Arista).

Dave


Was it the Cuvee Theo? I've heard around that some of the recent vintages of that particular wine are not all they're cracked up to be. FWIW I had the 2008
Weinbach Muscat Reserve this weekend and it rocked my world.
no avatar
User

David Mc

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

205

Joined

Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:20 am

Location

Washington DC -- Maryland Suburbs

Re: Anyone know about Alsace Rieslings?

by David Mc » Mon May 23, 2011 7:28 pm

Kelly Young wrote:
Was it the Cuvee Theo? I've heard around that some of the recent vintages of that particular wine are not all they're cracked up to be. FWIW I had the 2008
Weinbach Muscat Reserve this weekend and it rocked my world.


Actually, it was a 2006 Réserve Personnelle. I presume the Muscat is the same grape as the Loire Muscadet?
no avatar
User

Salil

Rank

Franc de Pied

Posts

2706

Joined

Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:26 pm

Location

albany, ny

Re: Anyone know about Alsace Rieslings?

by Salil » Mon May 23, 2011 7:37 pm

Nope - Loire Muscadet is Melon de Bourgogne, a very different grape in all aspects.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AhrefsBot, ByteSpider, ClaudeBot, FB-extagent, Google AgentMatch, LACNIC160, Ripe Bot, RIPEbot and 4 guests

Powered by phpBB ® | phpBB3 Style by KomiDesign