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For the Love of Plonk...

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For the Love of Plonk...

by Covert » Mon May 16, 2011 6:30 am

Still another article about the inability of a lot of people to appreciate “good” wine blind. This time in the Sunday New York Post, by Peter Hellman, who writes about wine for the New York Sun, the WSJ and Wine Spectator. He recounted a few recent experiments regarding blind wine identification. 578 Brits were given $5.70 versus $24.50 red Bordeaux to sample blind by a psychologist. 39% correctly identified the more expensive one as the “better” one. Hard to say what they were drinking, but we could guess a generic Bordeaux against a cru bourgeois.

The American Association of Wine Economists tested 6,000 Americans. Bottom line, folks enjoy more expensive wine slightly less. Neuroeconomists at the Califormia Institute of Technology confirmed this finding by measuring medial orbitofrontal cortex (brain’s pleasure center) responses. A related experiment was carried out regarding perception of place. A Cal Cab wine was served with a prix fix meal for 39 diners at an Illinois restaurant. Half were told the wine came from California and half from North Dakota. Food left on plates was weighed. The “California” wine drinkers ate more.

Then Hellman offered a really smarmy example, which makes me wonder about the integrity of his scientific intent. He cited an example of a sommelier boss at a five-star NYC restaurant tricking her staff by letting them taste a "$600 bottle of Chateauneuf-du-Pape." She instead substituted a “humble” $74 bottle of Gigondas. Some seemed perplexed, but none said, “This isn’t right.” First, being staff does not an expert make. Secondly, an employee would be wont to question his boss to her face. And, Thirdly, Gigondas is located very close to Chateauneuf-du-Pape, and I have drunk several bottles of Gigondas in the $30 to $40 price range which were raged outstanding by Robert Parker. A $74 bottle of Gigondas, while possibly a touch more rustic, could be expected to be every bit as good as many very expensive Chateauneuf-du-Papes.

But Hellman established himself as a credible writer by describing a 1914 Champagne made by the non-professional women and children of a winery from which the male winemakers had been called off to war. Bombs burst overhead but the wine was still made. While it was acknowledged that the liquid as tasted recently might not have evoked ooh’s and ah’s in a blind tasting, in the real life tasting there were tears. I guess the point is that in real life you better know what you are drinking or you could sacrifice the real point of wine.

I posted something similar recently after talking to a local sommelier about wine. He said he had read studies which reported that only 10% of people have the genetic wiring to appreciate good food or wine, and nine out of ten “fine” diners fake it, based on what "experts" conclude is good. Most fine diners prefer spaghetti, meatballs and beer when not being observed. I don’t know about any such percentages, but I would love sometime to be served Mouton Rothschild against Mouton Cadet blind and see how I fared. One thing this bunch of recent scientific inquiries has done for me: it has stopped me from wasting much of your or my time on this Wine Forum section of WLDG by sharing or caring what I or anybody else thinks about any particular wine.
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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by JC (NC) » Mon May 16, 2011 10:02 am

Covert, are you intentionally being insulting? I guess if your opinions and standards are the only ones that matter to you, your last sentence makes sense. I enjoy reading divergent opinions even when I don't agree with the opinion expressed (at least about wine and food--I'm less tolerant of political opinions by Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and the ilk although I sometimes listen to right-wing commentators just to see what the "enemy" is saying.)
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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by Covert » Mon May 16, 2011 11:12 am

JC (NC) wrote:Covert, are you intentionally being insulting? I guess if your opinions and standards are the only ones that matter to you, your last sentence makes sense. I enjoy reading divergent opinions even when I don't agree with the opinion expressed (at least about wine and food--I'm less tolerant of political opinions by Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and the ilk although I sometimes listen to right-wing commentators just to see what the "enemy" is saying.)


JC, what are you referring to? How can a lifetime learner get insulted by some critique of a newspaper article; or like I said to David, recently, by the likes of me, who has reported stuff like this for fifteen years on this forum? Don't you guys ever get desensitized? Geez! But if you will tell me what you found insulting, I will try to be honest about whether I was in anyway trying to insult anybody. I do sometimes, for sure. It is probably overcompensating for feelings of inferiority stemming from how I was treated in my early youth by people who had difficulty relating to the way I think. :)
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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by Bob Parsons Alberta » Mon May 16, 2011 11:24 am

One thing this bunch of recent scientific inquiries has done for me: it has stopped me from wasting much of your or my time on this Wine Forum section of WLDG by sharing or caring what I or anybody else thinks about any particular wine.

Not quite sure what you are getting at here? Are you trying to tell me that I am wasting your time/and others posting TNs?
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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by Kelly Young » Mon May 16, 2011 12:00 pm

What is "good" wine?
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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by Covert » Mon May 16, 2011 12:02 pm

Bob Parsons Alberta. wrote:One thing this bunch of recent scientific inquiries has done for me: it has stopped me from wasting much of your or my time on this Wine Forum section of WLDG by sharing or caring what I or anybody else thinks about any particular wine.

Not quite sure what you are getting at here? Are you trying to tell me that I am wasting your time/and others posting TNs?


You can't waste my time unless I read something you post about a tasting, which I wouldn't - especially because of your apparent dislike for more earthy smells, like the scent of a woman's armpits, elements which I admire in wine. And, yes, I am empathetically saying that I won't waste your time or anybody else's by posting much about my tastes - unless I found something really remarkable - because nobody knows how our tastes calibrate, except in the case of Jenise, whose palate I have come to associate with, and a little with Dale Williams. I tasted with him a couple of times and I know that he likes some similar elements in wines, - and Diane from Long Island, from her comments...and there are probably a couple of others I don’t remember at the moment. I don't have a clue about most WLDGer's tastes. Whether you are wasting other people's time, they would likely say you were not, so I won't comment further on that. It would get too polemical.
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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by JC (NC) » Mon May 16, 2011 12:30 pm

I was referring to your last sentence about it being a waste of your time and our time for you to post what you think about a wine on WLDG. I'm not objecting to the newspaper article.
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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by Covert » Mon May 16, 2011 12:42 pm

JC (NC) wrote:I was referring to your last sentence about it being a waste of your time and our time for you to post what you think about a wine on WLDG. I'm not objecting to the newspaper article.


As I said to Bob, I think it is a waste of my time, but almost nobody else would say that, and it is of course up to every individual to determine how his time should be spent. But I will say that as human beings slowly become educated, there will be a day when more people agree with me that such discussion is wasting their time as well. Ten years ago when I suggested that tasting wine blind robs people of enjoyment, a lot of WLDGer's stridently disagreed with me, saying that being influenced by a label leads to people being "fooled" about the true quality of the wine. Today a lot of people understand what the results of the functional MRI scans have shown, that pleasure is caused only in part by the liquid by itself, and that the label and other factors, such as the taster him- or herself, and venue, provide the all important context which adds to the true quality of the wine. This was blasphemy when I first said it and it is now common knowledge. Like when I said that Tiger Woods was washed up.
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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by Rahsaan » Mon May 16, 2011 2:05 pm

Covert wrote:Like when I said that Tiger Woods was washed up.


What's your view on Federer and Nadal? Derek Jeter?
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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by ChaimShraga » Mon May 16, 2011 2:48 pm

Strange, I was wondering when he picked up on TIger's decline.
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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by Covert » Mon May 16, 2011 3:29 pm

ChaimShraga wrote:Strange, I was wondering when he picked up on TIger's decline.


He was swinging the club like a stiff, muscle bound, aging man before he started to lose. That observation plus a bunch of young guys shooting in the high 50s and low 60s inspired the comment from me on Friends and Fun when he first came back after his breakup.

I don't follow the other sports, so I can't comment on any of the guys in the post above. I am aware that Federer has probably surpassed his prime.
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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by ChaimShraga » Mon May 16, 2011 3:41 pm

Covert wrote:
ChaimShraga wrote:Strange, I was wondering when he picked up on TIger's decline.


He was swinging the club like a stiff, muscle bound, aging man before he started to lose. That observation plus a bunch of young guys shooting in the high 50s and low 60s inspired the comment from me on Friends and Fun when he first came back after his breakup.

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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by Ryan M » Mon May 16, 2011 8:22 pm

Covert wrote:But I will say that as human beings slowly become educated, there will be a day when more people agree with me that such discussion is wasting their time as well.


You know Zarathustra, despite what you seem to think, I find your attitude in this thread to be particularly anti-intellectual. The cultivation of knowledge occurs through human interaction, and by no other means. We share our experiences (wine or otherwise) in part to build with others a more complete understanding of a thing. If you are unwilling to share your experiences/knowledge and accept from others their experiences/knowledge as a valid "data points" for consideration, that makes you worse than someone who doesn't care at all.
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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by Covert » Mon May 16, 2011 8:56 pm

Ryan Maderak wrote:
Covert wrote:But I will say that as human beings slowly become educated, there will be a day when more people agree with me that such discussion is wasting their time as well.


You know Zarathustra, despite what you seem to think, I find your attitude in this thread to be particularly anti-intellectual. The cultivation of knowledge occurs through human interaction, and by no other means. We share our experiences (wine or otherwise) in part to build with others a more complete understanding of a thing. If you are unwilling to share your experiences/knowledge and accept from others their experiences/knowledge as a valid "data points" for consideration, that makes you worse than someone who doesn't care at all.


Ryan, I am trying to share something I am reading more and more about which is a lot more enlightening (to me anyway) than whether I or some other bloke likes some bottle or another on a particular day. There are thousands of different bottles. It's like telling the world that your girl is the best because you think she is. There is an elephant somewhere in the tasting room in plain view that we are not seeing. That is my experience and knowledge that I am sharing.
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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by David M. Bueker » Mon May 16, 2011 9:23 pm

Guys,

Relax, it's just Covert's usual schtick wherein he distorts facts (or even more fun, distorts opinions) to prove evolutionary superiority. It's the official sport of the WLDG! :wink: :mrgreen:
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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by Ryan M » Mon May 16, 2011 9:25 pm

Covert wrote:
Ryan Maderak wrote:
Covert wrote:But I will say that as human beings slowly become educated, there will be a day when more people agree with me that such discussion is wasting their time as well.


You know Zarathustra, despite what you seem to think, I find your attitude in this thread to be particularly anti-intellectual. The cultivation of knowledge occurs through human interaction, and by no other means. We share our experiences (wine or otherwise) in part to build with others a more complete understanding of a thing. If you are unwilling to share your experiences/knowledge and accept from others their experiences/knowledge as a valid "data points" for consideration, that makes you worse than someone who doesn't care at all.


Ryan, I am trying to share something I am reading more and more about which is a lot more enlightening (to me anyway) than whether I or some other bloke likes some bottle or another on a particular day. There are thousands of different bottles. It's like telling the world that your girl is the best because you think she is. There is an elephant somewhere in the tasting room in plain view that we are not seeing. That is my experience and knowledge that I am sharing.


Perhaps I was being a little harsh and missed your point. I apologize. I did actually find the research findings you posted very interesting (particularly that the Brits can tell the difference). I confess that my statement was partly if not mostly a general reaction to this seemingly being another case of you saying that you get it and the rest of us don't.

Okay, putting that aside, I don't think we share tasting notes because we think this bottle or that is one of the best ever and we want to convince others of that. I will very rarely say that a wine is one of the best I've ever had, but mostly I'm sharing my enthusiasm, not trying to pass my opinion off as a "judgement." I think we share notes because we believe it is of interest to other wine lovers, not to brag.

Now, I will partly agree with you on one thing, which is that I do not read all of the WTN threads that get posted here because many of them are about wines/regions that for one reason or another don't interest me very much, although I still appreciate the effort and enthusiasm that went into writing and sharing them, and I know that they are of interest to someone. However, I thought what you were saying is that all sharing of wine experiences is ultimately without value, which I thoroughly disagree with. Is it possible this comes down to the difference between wine as a "Dionysian" pursuit and wine as an "Apollonian pursuit?" If all you are after is the sensory pleasure, then yes, much of what you say is valid. But I, and I assume most if not all of the people who post here, also find wine intellectual stimulating, and I want to learn more and more about it, and incorporate other people's "data points" into my own understanding (and yes, I am thinking about this much the way a scientist would, which you are free to agree with or not).

But it is true that at the end of the day, what matters is whether you enjoy a wine for your own reasons, and for you your palate should be the final word. But that doesn't mean that other's people's palates don't have a valuable perspective to offer. Just my two cents.

Best Wishes,
Ryan
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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by Lou Kessler » Mon May 16, 2011 9:27 pm

Rahsaan wrote:
Covert wrote:Like when I said that Tiger Woods was washed up.


What's your view on Federer and Nadal? Derek Jeter?

Could that be a hint of sarcasm wafting through the May air?
Rahsaan, Covert being Covert is not easily understood in the time warp that ordinary mortals occupy. :roll: :?:
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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by David M. Bueker » Mon May 16, 2011 9:38 pm

Everyone knows that the topic of the moment is Posada.

Federer is so last Egyptian dictatorship.
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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by Covert » Tue May 17, 2011 8:15 am

Ryan Maderak wrote:Perhaps I was being a little harsh and missed your point. I apologize. I did actually find the research findings you posted very interesting (particularly that the Brits can tell the difference). I confess that my statement was partly if not mostly a general reaction to this seemingly being another case of you saying that you get it and the rest of us don't.

Okay, putting that aside, I don't think we share tasting notes because we think this bottle or that is one of the best ever and we want to convince others of that. I will very rarely say that a wine is one of the best I've ever had, but mostly I'm sharing my enthusiasm, not trying to pass my opinion off as a "judgement." I think we share notes because we believe it is of interest to other wine lovers, not to brag.

Now, I will partly agree with you on one thing, which is that I do not read all of the WTN threads that get posted here because many of them are about wines/regions that for one reason or another don't interest me very much, although I still appreciate the effort and enthusiasm that went into writing and sharing them, and I know that they are of interest to someone. However, I thought what you were saying is that all sharing of wine experiences is ultimately without value, which I thoroughly disagree with. Is it possible this comes down to the difference between wine as a "Dionysian" pursuit and wine as an "Apollonian pursuit?" If all you are after is the sensory pleasure, then yes, much of what you say is valid. But I, and I assume most if not all of the people who post here, also find wine intellectual stimulating, and I want to learn more and more about it, and incorporate other people's "data points" into my own understanding (and yes, I am thinking about this much the way a scientist would, which you are free to agree with or not).

But it is true that at the end of the day, what matters is whether you enjoy a wine for your own reasons, and for you your palate should be the final word. But that doesn't mean that other's people's palates don't have a valuable perspective to offer. Just my two cents.

Best Wishes,
Ryan


No apologies ever necessary, Ryan, unless you insult my dead mother or something like that. But thank you for the consideration. I often say wiseass stuff on purpose to antagonize people. It's the trixter archetype I invoke to liven things up. I misspoke, however, when I used the term "best." I know that what we are sharing is what we get, whether we think it is good or disappointing.

In my original post of this thread I am trying to make sense out of perception. I am becoming aware that the role an actual glass of chemicals plays in that perception is relatively small compared to the importance of genetics and context. The business of my getting it and others not only applies here to how a lot of people think that quality resides primarily in the glass. Obviously the actual chemicals are related to what a consensus will be about the wine quality, but not as important as most people think. In the words of Ronald Jackson in his Tome, Wine Tasting, and A Professional Handbook: "it is becoming clear that perception is relative, with few absolutes. What an individual perceives depends not only on genetics, but also on their upbringing, current emotional and physical health, and the context in which the tasting occurs. Within limits, the latter can be more important to perception than the quality of the wine. Dogmatism concerning wine quality is as obsolete s the model-T Ford."

In my opinion, it is actually in the Dionysian sense that talk and analysis enhances experience. I am actually taking an apollonian approach here in discussing scientifically how less than we think resides in the glass. And I don't care what somebody I hardly know thinks is in the glass, so I don't read what people on this forum say about a particular bottle of wine, or hardly ever report what I get from a bottle. I am more inclined to share my artistic reflections brought on in part by the act of drinking a particular bottle; although they have little significance to anybody but me. Talking about what one gets is important to me when I am among loved ones and friends. The talk is a focal point for communication and connection. I think both the Dionysian and apollonian approaches, working together in wholeness, enhance the wine experience. Using Jackson's words again, this appreciation "can embellish our short span on this small speck of the universe with wonders that make life fully worth living."

My best,

Covert
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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by James Roscoe » Tue May 17, 2011 8:47 am

David M. Bueker wrote:Everyone knows that the topic of the moment is Posada.

Federer is so last Egyptian dictatorship.

Only in NYC and environs. :roll:
Yes, and how many deaths will it take 'til he knows
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The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by Daniel Rogov » Tue May 17, 2011 1:51 pm

Oy Covert, I love you and you know I love you, so that clears at least part of the board.

I read through your posts with interest. I contemplated on a reaction but decided that it be a long serious of reactions and those would take a minimum of two rather large volumes. Alas, as we all know, the internet has shortened our attention span so I shall hold off. .... Well, at least until that day when I decide to actually write those two volumes.

Best
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P.S. I am once again growing averse to smilies so please simply imagine a smilie at the end of the above mini-paragraph.
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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by James Roscoe » Tue May 17, 2011 2:54 pm

Daniel Rogov wrote:Oy Covert, I love you and you know I love you, so that clears at least part of the board.

It certainly clears up some lingering questions I've had. :roll:
Yes, and how many deaths will it take 'til he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by Daniel Rogov » Tue May 17, 2011 3:04 pm

James Roscoe wrote:
Daniel Rogov wrote:Oy Covert, I love you and you know I love you, so that clears at least part of the board.

It certainly clears up some lingering questions I've had. :roll:


James, Hi...

You are, I am quite certain, aware of amor platonicus .

Very Best and Smiling
Rogov
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Re: For the Love of Plonk...

by Peter May » Tue May 17, 2011 3:44 pm

578 Brits were given $5.70 versus $24.50 red Bordeaux to sample blind by a psychologist. 39% correctly identified the more expensive one as the “better” one.

Without a reference to the tasting it is not certain , but this seems to be the recent University of Hertfordshire report that has drawn flak on several levels.

At the tasting people did not compare two wines, they had just one taste of one wine and, given two prices, were asked to guess the correct one.

It was done at a public science fair.
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