WTN: My first orange wine: Coenobium

2008 Monastero Suore Cistercensi Coenobium Rusticum Lazio IGT - Italy, Latium, Lazio IGT (4/22/2011)
Slight sediment, mostly gold color though my wife swears there is a hint of orange. Strong Norman apple cider nose. Not really oxidized, though with asparagus that aspect is emphasized. I would love to say there was complexity here, but mostly it's just the apple cider flavor. Good acid. My first orange wine, and for the price and the non-traditional style I was really expecting a lot more. Good+.


Posted from CellarTracker

My first orange wine, and for the price and the non-traditional style I was really expecting a lot more.

Welcome to the world of bottle variation! I had a bottle of this back in October and it was showing a lot more than just cider. I agree that when these wines (or any wines) lean too heavily on the apple juice-cider spectrum they can be boring. But that's definitely not an orange wine showing its best character, which for me is usually some combination of ripe juicy fruits, nuts, minerals, maybe herbs, plus the tangy tactile tannic mouthfeel.

Welcome to the world of bottle variation!

Dear Rahsaan,

Thanks for the feedback, that's the sort of thing I was looking for. This wine was recommended to me as an unabashedly orange wine but not one of the more extreme ones. I'm planning to make a trip to Terroir in SF where they have it by the glass, and give it another try.

Walt

This wine was recommended to me as an unabashedly orange wine but not one of the more extreme ones. I'm planning to make a trip to Terroir in SF where they have it by the glass, and give it another try.

I've heard other folks complain of bottle variation with this wine and I agree that it is delicious but not too strange. That said I don't think orange wine in general is really all that strange. If one leaves aside the tendency towards brett among some of the more 'natural' producers, the core concept behind orange wine is lots of intense flavors (further enhanced by the extended skin contact) which seems to be a crowd-pleasing concept if I've ever heard of one.

But in general the category is priced high for experimentation. Sort of like Burgundy (or many other categories these days) as the ones with the most character cost well north of $50 and IMHO don't provide the bang for the buck. But that's just my humble opinion. In that respect the Coenobium is good value. So I hope you have better luck next time.

But in general the category is priced high for experimentation. Sort of like Burgundy (or many other categories these days) as the ones with the most character cost well north of $50 and IMHO don't provide the bang for the buck.

Walt,

If you're shopping around the Bay Area, keep your eyes open for the Pheasant's Tears Rkatsiteli from Georgia (mentioned by Brian in his post: http://www.wineloverspage.com/forum/village/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=38447). It's made with extended skin contact and raised in buried amphorae, traditional Georgian winemaking techniques. It sells for around 20 bucks and it and the Coenobium hit my sweet spot for being well-priced and interesting orange wines--as there are some amazing ones which alas are also amazingly priced.

I don’t have much to add; I think Rahsaan did a good job. One thing about “orange wines” is you have to give them time. (2008 for an “orange wine” I would consider “young”). Hopefully the acid and whatever tannins the wine gets from the skin contact are adequate to get it there. I’m not so sure about “picking-up” a “tactile tannic mouth-feel” in an ‘orange wine”. (Maybe it is because I’m accustomed to drinking highly tannic reds). But I do associate the fruit I pick up in the “orange wine” with what I believe is the “tannin content”. Some things in nature just have a low tannin contents, others moderate and yet others high tannin content.
If the wine reminds me of a “raw hide boot” I automatically think “high” tannin. Fruits such as oranges, peaches, pears (any type), figs, and grapefruit I associate with “high” tannin. Apples (any type) on the other hand I associate with “moderate” tannin. Things like floral notes, hints of pineapple, bananas, maybe some veggie notes, I would think fairly “low” tannin.

Salute

One thing about “orange wines” is you have to give them time.

Why? Do you really think they are difficult to drink when young? Whether or not you prefer them with aged characteristics is a different story but they seem pretty approachable and friendly when young, to me.

I’m not so sure about “picking-up” a “tactile tannic mouth-feel” in an ‘orange wine”. (Maybe it is because I’m accustomed to drinking highly tannic reds). But I do associate the fruit I pick up in the “orange wine” with what I believe is the “tannin content”.

It's all relative. I'm not equating orange wine with Madiran. But as you said there is something gained in mouthfeel from the skin contact.

I agree that when these wines (or any wines) lean too heavily on the apple juice-cider spectrum they can be boring. But that's definitely not an orange wine showing its best character, which for me is usually some combination of ripe juicy fruits, nuts, minerals, maybe herbs, plus the tangy tactile tannic mouthfeel.

I find that too.

Fruits such as oranges, peaches... I associate with “high” tannin. Apples (any type) on the other hand I associate with “moderate” tannin.

Really?! Are you sure you are talking about tannin? There is absolutely no question that (most varieties of) apple(s) have a higher tannin content than (most varieties of) orange(s) or peach(es).

Hi Ben,
For the most part in most fruit you find very little tannin in the flesh, pulp, or juice of the fruit. Mainly you find it in the skins. For the most part I have no problem eating the “skin” of a fresh ripe apple (any type of apple, no matter how little of the “flesh” I take in one bite). But oranges with their peel and sometimes “thick” white rind I do find it quite tannic. Peaches (actually are related to almonds), especially the “big Italian” peaches with their very thick “fuzzy” skin; if I don’t grasp enough of the “yellow” flesh again I do find it quite tannic. (Maybe this is why they are so good when you soak them in wine overnight). Same thing with the thick green skin Bartlett pairs I grow in my backyard.

Salute

For the most part in most fruit you find very little tannin in the flesh, pulp, or juice of the fruit. Mainly you find it in the skins.

True. Apple juice certainly has higher tannin content than orange or peach juice, and I'd bet that the same goes for the skin (though I don't have data on the latter). If you include the skin in your "bite" I still think the total tannin content in your mouth would be lower for a peach than it would be for an apple, though the same might not go for an orange (but how many people actually eat orange rind/pith?). But I do understand that associations (as you mentioned for orange wines) aren't necessarily the same as real connections. Thanks for the response.

Besides the actual tannin content, whether or not one experiences an astringent sensation (“drying” or “roughing” of the mouth or experiences a “tannic mouth-feel” sensation) will depend upon the types of tannin present.

Salute

Timely posting. I purchased my first orange wine in Chapel Hill on April 16 and will probably be opening it sometime in May or June. The owner said if I like it, he has another for me to try (probably more expensive than this first one.)