Cote-Du-Rhone - Cotie-Rotie- Pinot Noir

I was looking up some information about a Cotes-du-Rhone for a customer and branched out over to Cotie-Rotie, which brought me over to some more info about Pinot Noir.

I think I have this straight: (or at least semi-straight)

Cote-du-Rhone <Most seem between $9 and $18> (Southern area of Rhone) uses : Grenache Noir, Syrah and Mourvedre grapes
Cotie-Rotie <$30 and higher> (Northern area of Rhone) uses: Syrah and Viogneir as their major grape components.

So now, my question
I always imagined that those wines would have also included the Pinot Noir grape. The Pinot Noir grape covers so much of France's Burgundy region, so why isnt this grape included in the two above wines I listed? Or is it?

I remember drinking a number of Cote-du-Rhones and a few Cotie-Rotie back in the 70's and enjoyed them so much. I recently had a inexpensive ($11) bottle of a Cote-du-Rhone and was surprised at how light it was. I had always pictured those wines from Rhone to be big body and use a good amount of Syrah vs other grapes.

Pinot Noir isn't an approved grape variety for Rhone under the AOC rules.

Wines can be made in any number of styles----whatever the grape variety or varieties---so throughout the Rhone the style depends as much upon what the winemaker/producer intends to do as anything else. So you can have heavy, or light, or anything in between with CdR if that is what you want. In that sense, the amount of Syrah isn't necessarily a determining factor in how "big" the wine will be.

Chateauneuf-du-Pape doesn't necessarily have to have Syrah in it...and some of the biggest and boldest ones are primarily Grenache-driven. Grenache can be entirely insipid (if overcropped) or magnificent in depth (if the reverse). It all depends.

Syrah is a very recent grape variety for the Southern Rhone, Ron; historically the southern part of the Rhone didn't grow Syrah very much at all, but a killing freeze wiped out a lot of less cold-tolerant varieties back in the 1950s, and much of that was replanted in the more cold-resistant and hardy Syrah. Go even further back, and Grenache was a newfangled import from Spain (Garnacha); grenache was prized because it provided huge yields and made lots of wine. Mourvedre (Mataro, Monastrell) was a Spanish import as well.

Cote-Rotie's style is not just from Syrah (or Viog or Roussanne); it's also WHERE it is located, and HOW the traditional winemaking has developed into a prevalent style.

Don't focus ONLY on the grape (s). Consider the climate the topography and terrain, the weather patterns, large and small, the soil (very important), and the prevailing traditional styles of the region. They are as, if not more, important in the grand scheme.

I'm not sure where question re Pinot Noir comes from - Burgundy is quite separate from Rhone valley. Never heard of any PN grown in Rhone - not a permitted variety.

Pretty much all Northern Rhones only use Syrah as a red grape. Cote Rotie is singular in that it allow Viognier (white) to be blended in. I think the percentage can be up to 20%, but 5% is more common (or using no Viognier at all). The other N Rhone red appellations (Cornas, St Joseph, Hermitage, C-Hermitage) are 100% Syrah.

Southern Rhone wines are typically blends- Grenache is most common, but there's plenty of Mourvedre, Syrah, Counoise, Cinsault,etc,. Most CdR one sees are from Southern Rhone, though there can be 100% Syrah CdR from the north (Clape makes a CdR using young vines from estate in Cornas, for example).

"Light" can be a function of grape, ripeness at picking, cellar practice, and lots of other variables.

Hoke answered better than I did!

Actually, you added several points I didn't even comment on, Dale.

Most CdR one sees are from Southern Rhone, though there can be 100% Syrah CdR from the north (Clape makes a CdR using young vines from estate in Cornas, for example).

Just to add to the great information above, Domaine Jamet (Jean-Paul) produces CoteS-du-Rhone with syrah grapes ALL sourced from within Cote-Rotie. They also produce white CdRs.

There are certainly some varietal Pinot Noirs produced under the Vin de Pays d'Oc designation in the Languedoc, but that's about as close as PN gets to the Rhone.

Inspires a thought: can you imagine how bad a site Cote-Rotie would be for Pinot Noir? Would make those over-extracted, palate-burning-high alcohol PN's from California look elegant!

Dale, Hoke, Ramon and Ryan have given excellent replies to which I have little to add.

That little concerns the character of Syrah/Shiraz which changes substantially as the climate warms up. IMO Northern Rhône Syrah and especially Côte Rôtie has an incomparable combination of elegance, aromatics and power; the first of which, with certain exceptions, tends to disappear as we head south (north in the Southern hemisphere), the second coarsens and the last amplifies; already Cornas illustrates the beginning of this progression (or degradation, if one prefers).

A new Zealand expert, Geoffrey Kelly, has done an excellent analysis of this rakes' progress. If we aim off for some special pleading in favour of Kiwi Syrah, the rest of the analysis is full of insight http://www.geoffkellywinereviews.co.nz/ ... icleID=131 . I would add that I find a lot of steely cherry in Northern Rhône to which Kelly does not allude. However these fruit similes are always approximate.

Inspires a thought: can you imagine how bad a site Cote-Rotie would be for Pinot Noir? Would make those over-extracted, palate-burning-high alcohol PN's from California look elegant!

Ryan, while hopefully we never know (I'm a traditionalist, I like my Cote Rotie to be Syrah with just a tinge of Viognier) I'm not so sure of that (absent global warning). Chateauneuf-du-Pape, maybe, but I believe Cote Rotie is comparatively cool. Lots of classic C-R is in the 12.5-13% range. I've never had a Cote Rotie that would generally compare to those monster Cali Syrahs that are often grown quite close to those monster Cali PNs.

I've never had a Cote Rotie that would generally compare to those monster Cali Syrahs that are often grown quite close to those monster Cali PNs.

Excellent point Dale!

any chance we are being 'played' here? when i compare the names on the post side of the list with those on the reply side, i notice a big difference.

I was looking up some information about a Cotes-du-Rhone for a customer and branched out over to Cotie-Rotie, which brought me over to some more info about Pinot Noir...I always imagined that those wines would have also included the Pinot Noir grape. The Pinot Noir grape covers so much of France's Burgundy region, so why isnt this grape included in the two above wines I listed? Or is it?

What everyone else said.

[Robin Garr]

It wouldn't be polite of me to ask ...

Really it wouldn't be, Steve. Let's not act like that in this pub, okay?

I always imagined that those wines would have also included the Pinot Noir grape. The Pinot Noir grape covers so much of France's Burgundy region, so why isnt this grape included in the two above wines I listed?

Why did you imagine this, Ron? They are quite distinctly different regions.

Of course Cote Rotie has nothing to do with pinot or Burgundy.
But even though, Pinot on mica schist, granit or gneiss???
Pinot is a limestone and clay grape. Period.

I always imagined that those wines would have also included the Pinot Noir grape. The Pinot Noir grape covers so much of France's Burgundy region, so why isnt this grape included in the two above wines I listed?

Why did you imagine this, Ron? They are quite distinctly different regions.

Anything to do with April 1 ?

I always imagined that those wines would have also included the Pinot Noir grape. The Pinot Noir grape covers so much of France's Burgundy region, so why isnt this grape included in the two above wines I listed?

Why did you imagine this, Ron? They are quite distinctly different regions.

Anything to do with April 1 ?

If it does, then the guy is a genius.

I realised afterwards that a a Rhone red containing Pinot Noir is not unheard of -- or actually the other way around.

Burgundy was beefed up with the addition of syrah from the Rhone and/or other southern or Algerian red, it is sincerely believed. After th UK joined the EU and became subject to AOC rules many British consumers were disappointed at how light and thine Burgundy had become.

Burgundy was beefed up with the addition of syrah from the Rhone and/or other southern or Algerian red, it is sincerely believed. After th UK joined the EU and became subject to AOC rules many British consumers were disappointed at how light and thine Burgundy had become.

Peter, I think that this beefing up concerned mainly British bottlings (domaine bottlings being then quite rare in any case). I remember hearing in those "bad old days" that some "honest" British wine merchants sold the real thing but got keen prices from the Burgundians by not requiring the "acquit vert" (effectively a certificate of authenticity for the quantity bought). This allowed less "honest" Burgundians either to stretch yields from the vineyard and/or to sell beefed up wines within the EU with the coverage of an "acquit vert".

Some Belgian wine merchants doing their own bottling were rumoured to have their own recipes for improving clarets and Burgundies, such as a dash of port here and a dash of cassis there. And the improvement may have been real, particularly in weaker vintages.

Tim, on the theme

I first heard about the practice of blending Cabernet Sauvignon with Syrah during my student days in Bordeaux. Before the introduction of Appellation Controllee, Hermitage was often used to bolster ‘thin’ Bordeaux wines, including the classified growths.

Indeed several of the more famous Bordeaux Chateaux proudly proclaimed that their wines had been ‘Hermitaged’ in poor vintages, presumably because producers considered it an advantage. There was no attempt to deceive customers. Honest merchants considered ‘blending’ is a good rather than a disreputable practice.

Chateau Palmer has recently released a wine in its Nineteenth Century series that is a blend of Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot and Syrah.

From a new book "Australian Wine Walkabout" by David Copp.