Help: Please define Organic Wines

Every once in a while a person asks me to show them all of our Organic wines. For whatever reason, every time that happens, I get a little cringe going up my neck.
Even more so, when they say, I have to have an Organic wine, since I am allergic to sulfites.

Then I start to explain that all wines have some degree of sulfites, but what you may be looking for are those that do not ADD any additional sulfites. One of the first wines in the CT area
to do this were produced by a Doctor. He constantly talked about his wines, the added value of no additional sulfites. (DiGrazia Wines)

To me, I have believed that grapes are pretty organic, so I need help here in identifying what grapes are and those that are not. Also to be organic, or more to the point nowadays, Green they have to be produced in an environmental friendly environment, which I translate into using no artificial or chemical pesticides. I know many California vineyards deploy LadyBugs to control unwanted insects.

So, want I am looking for , is a crisp clean definition of Organic Wines. as viewed by seasoned wine lovers and not just Wikipedia definitions.

Also to be organic, or more to the point nowadays, Green they have to be produced in an environmental friendly environment, which I translate into using no artificial or chemical pesticides.

Not going to touch the rest of this question but this point is a major issue that folks rarely want to discuss. For a vineyard to be certified organic, there is a limited number of chemicals that can be sprayed. Those chemicals generally have a shorter period of effectivity. To account for this one needs to spray more often resulting in more hours on the tractor and hence more fuel burned and more CO2. Additionally, the more one uses that tractor the more the soil compaction that occurs and creating a situation that needs to be addressed - most often by getting out the tractor.

Point is that often the outcome of going organic is less green not more.

Maybe I don't understand the question but isn't an organic wine a wine that is made from grapes that are grown organically?

Surely, one can easily find/craft a generally accepted definition of organic growing/farming, can't you?

heh heh heh

Warning: Quagmire Ahead!

Hoke has the answer, there is no hard fast definition that is held by everyone. No chemicals? Well a little in the way of sulfur compounds when early heavy rains are threatening to wipe out the grape crop. Sulfur can be found naturally in nature so that's still organic. I've heard arguements about what is "organic" between people involved in growing grapes & making wines on many occasions here in Napa and there is no conclusion that I'm aware of at this time.

While it is true that there is no defintion that is universally held, the definition that maters is the one or ones held by the controlling agency. I the US, that is USDA. Best I can find is as follows:

The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) regulates organic claims by wineries. Currently the USDA has the following standards:

“100% Organic”: Must contain one-hundred-percent organically produced ingredients. They must be processed using organically produced processing aids and can not have added sulfites.

“Organic”: Must contain at least ninety-five-percent organically produced ingredients and must not contain added sulfites. May contain up to five-percent non-organically produced agricultural ingredients.

“Made with Organic Grapes “: Must contain at least seventy- percent organically produced grapes. May contain up to thirty-percent non-organically produced grapes and other additives (juice extracts etc). May contain added sulfites

“Made with Organic and Non-Organic Grapes”: Must contain at least seventy-percent organic agriculture ingredients, grapes included. May include up to thirty-percent non-organic agriculture ingredients and substances. May contain added sulfites. Label must state presence of non-organic grapes.

“Organic Ingredients Statement”: Allows a wine that fails to meet more stringent standards to list the percentage of organic agriculture ingredients and specific organic ingredient. May contain less than seventy-percent organic agriculture ingredients and more than thirty-percent non-organically produced ingredients.

So, to be 100% organic, only organic approved additions may be used. So, as an example, no yeast nutrient containing DAP, only naturally sourced nitrogen, mainly from yeast hulls, and only those which bear the Organic Approved label.

Also, to address the issue of sulfur, as I understand, naturally derived sulfur is available that is organic approved. I believe this is what is needed for treating powdery mildew, unless one of the newer treatments is to be used. I will check to be 100% sure and confirm back on this thread.

The EU has a different standard, from what I gather.

Sorry, it is far from simple, but the standard actually does exist.

Hope that helps.

Andrew

Hoke has the answer, there is no hard fast definition that is held by everyone. No chemicals? Well a little in the way of sulfur compounds when early heavy rains are threatening to wipe out the grape crop. Sulfur can be found naturally in nature so that's still organic. I've heard arguements about what is "organic" between people involved in growing grapes & making wines on many occasions here in Napa and there is no conclusion that I'm aware of at this time.

Yes, the definition is a problem, one that the European Union cannot handle either.

It seems ridiculous to impose standards in the vineyard, but not in the cellar.

But, that's the way it is and is likely to remain for some time.

Personally, I place greater emphasis on the quality than on the way the wine was made.
In other words give me a good non-organic wine any day over a less good organic wine.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Yes, the definition is a problem, one that the European Union cannot handle either.

From the EU perspective:
http://www.morethanorganic.com/organic-wine-law

But I suspect this legislation is more recent:
http://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic ... slation_en

Every once in a while a person asks me to show them all of our Organic wines...Even more so, when they say, I have to have an Organic wine, since I am allergic to sulfites.

When they say they are allergic to sulfites, ask them if they eat dried fruit (prunes, apricots, mango spears, raisin bran etc.), and if so if they only eat unsulfited versions. Most dried fruit has more sulfites than wine by an order of magnitude. If the dried fruit hasn't bothered them, then it's not the sulfites in wine either.

Wine labeled Organic wine or Made From Organic Grapes has strict rules and protocol to be USDA certified, as pointed out above. Main thing to remember is Organic Wine cannot add SO2 (risky) while Wine Made From Organic Grapes can. If consumer's main concern is the environmental impact (pesticide runoff, disrupting insect populations, being mean to fungi, etc.) then Organic Grapes are probably quite sufficient. If they are worried for personal health reasons (needlessly IMHO except for truly sulfur allergenic), then organic wine is the candidate.

Even the fairly well defined USDA categories don't get to the nitty gritty of what is meant by "organically produced ingredients".

Hoke has the answer, there is no hard fast definition that is held by everyone.

Hoke and Lou,

It seems to me that the USDA has defined it pretty well. You can disagree with (or not like) their definition but it is well defined. You can argue that it should include standards in the cellar (which seems like a very reasonable argument) but it does not.

Two guys from Napa can argue all they want about this but that doesn't mean that a definition doesn't exist.

There is no such thing as organic wine according to EU regulations.

Only organic grapes. And therefore only wines made with organic grapes.
If there would be an EU organic wine one day, it would have to be without added sulfur since SO2 is forbidden for organic food.

BTW 100% organic wine (USDA) can be fermented with selected yeasts as soon as they are organic certified. So a 100% organic wine is not necessarily a "natural wine"!!!!!

I'm afraid to ask what the USDA definition of "natural" is.

You see some products labeled as natural that make you shake your head.

Hoke has the answer, there is no hard fast definition that is held by everyone.

Hoke and Lou,

It seems to me that the USDA has defined it pretty well. You can disagree with (or not like) their definition but it is well defined. You can argue that it should include standards in the cellar (which seems like a very reasonable argument) but it does not.

Two guys from Napa can argue all they want about this but that doesn't mean that a definition doesn't exist.

Hold on a second, Mr. T.: All I said was "Quagmire Ahead." And lo.....

You impute anything you wish to those words. But impute them to yourself, not me.

And by the way: you suck as badly as Michele Bachmann in geography. I'm not from Napa. I've never lived in Napa. I currently live in Portland, Oregon. That's a long way from Napa. Before that I lived in Sonoma, which is right next to Napa, but still a long way from Napa (just ask people from either Napa or Sonoma).

[James Roscoe]

Hoke has the answer, there is no hard fast definition that is held by everyone.

Hoke and Lou,

It seems to me that the USDA has defined it pretty well. You can disagree with (or not like) their definition but it is well defined. You can argue that it should include standards in the cellar (which seems like a very reasonable argument) but it does not.

Two guys from Napa can argue all they want about this but that doesn't mean that a definition doesn't exist.

Hold on a second, Mr. T.: All I said was "Quagmire Ahead." And lo.....

You impute anything you wish to those words. But impute them to yourself, not me.

And by the way: you suck as badly as Michele Bachmann in geography. I'm not from Napa. I've never lived in Napa. I currently live in Portland, Oregon. That's a long way from Napa. Before that I lived in Sonoma, which is right next to Napa, but still a long way from Napa (just ask people from either Napa or Sonoma).

Hoke, you are the easiest target.

Hoke, you are the easiest target. [/quote]

To personal snark? Yeah. Especially when it's uncalled for.

Hoke,

My reference to two guys in Napa was in response to Lou's comment. He said:

I've heard [sic] arguements about what is "organic" between people involved in growing grapes & making wines on many occasions here in Napa and there is no conclusion that I'm aware of at this time

Hoke,

My reference to two guys in Napa was in response to Lou's comment. He said:

I've heard [sic] arguements about what is "organic" between people involved in growing grapes & making wines on many occasions here in Napa and there is no conclusion that I'm aware of at this time

That's not at all clear from the entire message, Tom.

Hoke and Lou,

It seems to me that the USDA has defined it pretty well. You can disagree with (or not like) their definition but it is well defined. You can argue that it should include standards in the cellar (which seems like a very reasonable argument) but it does not.

Two guys from Napa can argue all they want about this but that doesn't mean that a definition doesn't exist.

The message is addressed to "Hoke and Lou", followed by "You", "You", and "Two guys from Napa can argue..."

(My line about not being from Napa was meant strictly as humor, btw. Now I see it may not have been perceived that way, just as what you intended was not perceived the same way, I suppose.)

That's not at all clear from the entire message, Tom.

I agree and that's why I followed up.

I promise you that I know where Portland, Oregon is. I've actually been there.

I wonder if we are not devoting too much energy to seeking out a legal definition of what might be an organic wine. My own preference is to go for pragmatics for as is well known, laws vary from one jurisdiction to another and indeed at times, as Mr Bumble so kindly reminded us "the law is a ass".

My own pragmatics say that an organic wine:

1. Must come from organically raised grapes, that is to say from vineyards that use no artificial or sewage-related fertilizers, that rely on no artificial sprays and whose borders are separated from other non-organic vineyards by a minimum of about 30-50 meters.

2. Once at the winery the grapes, must and eventually wine, must be treated only with products that are themselves certified as organic.

3. With regard to the addition of sulfates, I believe a wine can still be considered organic if the addition does not raise the level of sulfates to one that is higher than the grape itself in fermentation is capable of producing.

3. I do not accept the USDA standards of 70% heretofore referenced. That's like saying that someone is "a little bit pregnant". Ain't no middle ground here. Either you are or you are not (a) pregnant and/or (b) organic.

4. I do accept the EU standard of labeling wines as "made from organically raised grapes".

Best
Rogov

3. I do not accept the USDA standards of 70% heretofore referenced. That's like saying that someone is "a little bit pregnant". Ain't no middle ground here. Either you are or you are not (a) pregnant and/or (b) organic.

That's the one that has always caused me distress, Daniel.

Why go to all that trouble to maintain organic standards only to reach the point where your product can be adulterated up to 30% with non-organic material? Obviously a cave to the agri-business industries.

The other thing that aggravates me is the ready availability now of "organic'' fertilizers and insecticides. As a devoted biodynamic/organic grower told me: I didn't go to the trouble to avoid the synthetics to then adopt other ingredients, even if they're organically derived. It's still artificially derived input substitution, and that's what I was trying to avoid in the first place! Those who use those chemicals don't get it. It's not about using chemicals: it's about establishing a natural 'closed system' approach to farming that creates a more sustainable platform.

3. With regard to the addition of sulfates, I believe a wine can still be considered organic if the addition does not raise the level of sulfates to one that is higher than the grape itself in fermentation is capable of producing.

Daniel

I am not sure I do understand this.
Could you elaborate a bit?

Eric

It's not about using chemicals: it's about establishing a natural 'closed system' approach to farming that creates a more sustainable platform.

I agree that is what organic agriculture should be about. Indeed, I understand that is pretty much what gave rise to the term "organic".
But isn't it difficult, impossible even, when you practise monoculture and keep taking grapes out of the system?

It's not about using chemicals: it's about establishing a natural 'closed system' approach to farming that creates a more sustainable platform.

I agree that is what organic agriculture should be about. Indeed, I understand that is pretty much what gave rise to the term "organic".
But isn't it difficult, impossible even, when you practise monoculture and keep taking grapes out of the system?

Yes, it is difficult. And of course there's no such thing as a 'closed system'---can't be, can there?---but it's something that these people strive for. The purpose for bio/org/sustainable, at least in the mind of this guy I referenced, one of the best, brightest, and truest, is to do what it takes to produce the fruit according to the principles he has elected.

He doesn't think of it as difficult though. Necessary would be closer. But work yeah, it's a constant, never-ending, total involvement, dedication-requiring, all in kind of thing. He doesn't farm org/bio: he lives org/bio. But he also realized that people have to exist real world and not just in the world of ideals, so he also strives to make what he does practicable and attainable and achievable within the restraints of the modern concept of profit/loss and investment/return.

And he has done it. He has made it work.