The place for all things wine, focused on serious wine discussions.

Wine Reference & History Books

Moderators: Jenise, Robin Garr, David M. Bueker

no avatar
User

MichaelA

Rank

Cellar rat

Posts

14

Joined

Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:15 pm

Wine Reference & History Books

by MichaelA » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:54 pm

Hello WLDG!
It has been a long time since I have posted here. I felt I needed more education on wine to understand at the level of what this forum is about. So I have been doing lots of reading and research. I am looking for books and reference materials on the history of wine. I have a few nice books now, Hugh Johnson's Modern Encyclopedia of Wine, Frank Schoonmaker's The Wines of Germany and the Atlas of German Wine by Hugh Johnson.
I have some very poor ones also. Any recommendations?
Thanks, Michael

Oh by the way....2009 St Urbans-Hof Ockfener Bockstein Kabinett....pale light gold in the glass, slight So2 when first opened, which disappeared quickly showing bright Riesling fruit with lemons and limes. Tastes fresh and lively and does not disappoint. I really like the updated label too!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
“When wine sinks, words swim.” (Scottish)
no avatar
User

Peter May

Rank

Pinotage Advocate

Posts

4086

Joined

Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:24 am

Location

Snorbens, England

Re: Wine Reference & History Books

by Peter May » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:56 am

History of wine? Try 'The Story Wine' by Hugh Johnson for a good readable history.
no avatar
User

Daniel Rogov

Rank

Resident Curmudgeon

Posts

0

Joined

Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:10 am

Location

Tel Aviv, Israel

Re: Wine Reference & History Books

by Daniel Rogov » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:57 am

As a broad and excellent reference: The Oxford Companion to Wine (edited by Jancis Robinson). In my opinion, indispensible.

Best
Rogov
no avatar
User

Victorwine

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

2031

Joined

Thu May 18, 2006 9:51 pm

Re: Wine Reference & History Books

by Victorwine » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:24 am

I’ll second Peter’s suggestion. History? Hugh Johnson’s- “Vintage: The Story of Wine”.
For an Italian wine reference book I’ll go with Joseph Bastianich’s and David Lynch’s- “Vino Italiano; Regional Wines of Italy”.

Salute
no avatar
User

JC (NC)

Rank

Lifelong Learner

Posts

6679

Joined

Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:23 pm

Location

Fayetteville, NC

Re: Wine Reference & History Books

by JC (NC) » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:28 am

I purchased three bottles of the St. Urbans-Hof Ockfener Bockstein Kabinett after tasting it from a wine dispensing machine at a wine shop. It is quite nice.
no avatar
User

Robin Garr

Rank

Forum Janitor

Posts

21919

Joined

Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:44 pm

Location

Louisville, KY

Re: Wine Reference & History Books

by Robin Garr » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:53 am

"Hugh Johnson’s The Story of Wine,” which has apparently dropped the word "Vintage" from the title of the current edition, is my favorite general history of wine as well, from prehistoric times to the modern age, well and literately told.

You can check it out at this link on Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... rswineloA/

And if you buy it using this link, you'll not only get it for $26.40, a 34% saving from the $40 list price, but WineLoversPage.com will get a few paltry pence as our commission to help pay the rent. 8)
no avatar
User

Steve Slatcher

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

1047

Joined

Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:51 am

Location

Manchester, England

Re: Wine Reference & History Books

by Steve Slatcher » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:14 pm

Daniel Rogov wrote:As a broad and excellent reference: The Oxford Companion to Wine (edited by Jancis Robinson). In my opinion, indispensible.

Agreed. And while it is structured alphabetically, and looks imposing and dry, many of the articles are surprisingly readable. I use it less now than I did, but have certainly got my money's worth.

The reference book I use most now is probably Jancis Robinson's "Guide to Wine Grapes". A lot more limited in scope than the Oxford Companion, of course, but great for more obscure varieties. It was out of print when I bought mine, and presumably still is, but you can still find copies - on abebooks.com for example. I find it a lot easier to use than her larger format "Vines, Grapes and Wines".
no avatar
User

MichaelA

Rank

Cellar rat

Posts

14

Joined

Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:15 pm

Re: Wine Reference & History Books

by MichaelA » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:39 pm

Thank you all for the great recommendations. Robin, thanks I will order from the WLDG link to Amazon.

Michael
“When wine sinks, words swim.” (Scottish)
no avatar
User

Oliver McCrum

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

1076

Joined

Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:08 am

Location

Oakland, CA; Cigliè, Piedmont

Re: Wine Reference & History Books

by Oliver McCrum » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:07 pm

Steve Slatcher wrote:
Daniel Rogov wrote:As a broad and excellent reference: The Oxford Companion to Wine (edited by Jancis Robinson). In my opinion, indispensible.

Agreed. And while it is structured alphabetically, and looks imposing and dry, many of the articles are surprisingly readable. I use it less now than I did, but have certainly got my money's worth.

The reference book I use most now is probably Jancis Robinson's "Guide to Wine Grapes". A lot more limited in scope than the Oxford Companion, of course, but great for more obscure varieties. It was out of print when I bought mine, and presumably still is, but you can still find copies - on abebooks.com for example. I find it a lot easier to use than her larger format "Vines, Grapes and Wines".


The only problem with the Guide to Wine Grapes is that it appears to have been published in '96. I use the Oxford Companion because it's more current; a lot has changed in our understanding of wine grapes in 15 years. (Maybe there's a more current UK edition.)
Oliver
Oliver McCrum Wines
no avatar
User

Peter May

Rank

Pinotage Advocate

Posts

4086

Joined

Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:24 am

Location

Snorbens, England

Re: Wine Reference & History Books

by Peter May » Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:44 pm

The Guide was a pocket sized updated subset of Vines Grapes & Wines published in 1986. I read that Jancis was updating VG&W but there as yet been no sign of it. A more recent book is Oz Clarke & Margaret Rands Grapes & Wines (different title in USA?)

Although out of date VG&W is useful for the number of synonyms in its index when you're hunting down an obscure variety.

DNA testing is providing some surprises about the origin and fmialy linkages of varieties and an up to date book would be welcome.

I was reading a 2008 article by Prof Chris Orffer who was responsible for breeding 6 commercially succesful wine grape varieties in South Africa. He wroted that they

"were developed by means of open air hybridisation in vineyards and not under controlled hothouse conditions. Auto pollination in Vitis vinifera may take place freely while the operator is engaged in hybridisation. Errors may also occur in the collection of pollen, grape seeds and labelling."

He'd recently had some of the varieties he bred DNA tested and found that the parentage was not always what was it was supposed to be.
no avatar
User

Andrew Bair

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

929

Joined

Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:16 pm

Location

Massachusetts

Re: Wine Reference & History Books

by Andrew Bair » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:02 pm

Also a fan of Jancis' Oxford Encyclopedia of Wine. Another reference book that I really like is Tom Stevenson's Sothebys' Encyclopedia of Wine.

Glad to hear that their is a new edition of Wines, Grapes, and Vines in the works. The original 1986 edition, while very informative, is now rather outdated in some respects. I don't own a copy of it, - but wasn't Zinfandel still believed to be a native American grape back then?
no avatar
User

Steve Slatcher

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

1047

Joined

Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:51 am

Location

Manchester, England

Re: Wine Reference & History Books

by Steve Slatcher » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:09 am

Oliver McCrum wrote:The only problem with the Guide to Wine Grapes is that it appears to have been published in '96. I use the Oxford Companion because it's more current; a lot has changed in our understanding of wine grapes in 15 years. (Maybe there's a more current UK edition.)

Nope. As far as I know there is only the 1996 one. But as far as I know it is still currently the best reference for more obscure grapes that the Companion does not cover. I think it is more than an updated subset of Vines, Grapes and Wines - it is smaller, organised very differently, and with a lot higher information density.
no avatar
User

Peter May

Rank

Pinotage Advocate

Posts

4086

Joined

Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:24 am

Location

Snorbens, England

Re: Wine Reference & History Books

by Peter May » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:44 am

Andrew Bair wrote: but wasn't Zinfandel still believed to be a native American grape back then?



No. I don't belive Zin was ever considered to be a native variety, always an unknown European variety. Italian shippers to the US were labelling Primitivo as Zin in 1984 (and banned from doing so by BATF in 1985)

Jancis in V, G &W has 3 pages on Zin. First sentence begins:

"Zinfandel, Californias very own "European" varietal, is thrilling ..."

Second page has it coming to America in the early 19th century.

"Ampelographers have now established that the Primitivo of Apulia (and possibly the Plava Mali of Dalmatia across the Adriatic) is Zinfandel ......"
no avatar
User

Robin Garr

Rank

Forum Janitor

Posts

21919

Joined

Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:44 pm

Location

Louisville, KY

Re: Wine Reference & History Books

by Robin Garr » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:23 pm

Peter May wrote:
Andrew Bair wrote: but wasn't Zinfandel still believed to be a native American grape back then?

No. I don't belive Zin was ever considered to be a native variety, always an unknown European variety.

Concur. The Agoston Haraszthy legend was still pretty much received truth as late as the '80s, and was laden with legend but did assume that the "mystery grape" was an Italian import. The Primitivo resemblance was also known then, prompting the hypothesis that they were "cousins."

As far as I know, this story went all the way back to the 1800s, although Haraszthy's claimed role as the original importer and planter came under shadow when abundant historical evidence revealed that Zin had been sold as a table grape in New England before our Civil War. But it wasn't until Carole Meredith's studies that a Croatian heritage for both grapes was postulated and then proven by DNA analysis.
no avatar
User

Peter May

Rank

Pinotage Advocate

Posts

4086

Joined

Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:24 am

Location

Snorbens, England

Re: Wine Reference & History Books

by Peter May » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:00 pm

according to Charles L Sullivan in Zinfandel: A History of A Grape Agostin Haraszthy never claimed he imported Zinfandel, in fact he never once mentioned Zinfandel in all his many writings, It was Harasthy's son who who claimed that for his father, as well as many other claims.
no avatar
User

Robin Garr

Rank

Forum Janitor

Posts

21919

Joined

Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:44 pm

Location

Louisville, KY

Re: Wine Reference & History Books

by Robin Garr » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:53 pm

Peter May wrote:according to Charles L Sullivan in Zinfandel: A History of A Grape Agostin Haraszthy never claimed he imported Zinfandel, in fact he never once mentioned Zinfandel in all his many writings, It was Harasthy's son who who claimed that for his father, as well as many other claims.

May be, although that flies in the face of the way I heard (and read) the story in countless variations, and I assume the way it was told from the 1870s forward. By all accounts, Haraszthy was a promoter of Barnumesque proportions. Does Sullivan assert that this was all actually the result of his son's efforts? Does Sullivan also get into the reported strange, Ambrose Bierce-like disappearance of the father into the wilds of Latin America? (Sorry I haven't read the book, but I guess I'm just not that interested in Zin. ;) )
no avatar
User

Victorwine

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

2031

Joined

Thu May 18, 2006 9:51 pm

Re: Wine Reference & History Books

by Victorwine » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:47 pm

Hi Robin,
When it comes to the Colonel no doubt he was a great organizer and “frontiersman”, when it comes to the history of the “American West” he is a prominent individual, and I might add, very “colorful”.
As Peter pointed out all Sullivan is questioning is that in all of the Colonel’s speeches letters and other writing he does not once mention “Zinfandel” (or his connection with it). During a very crucial time of our country’s history the Colonel goes off with his family to Europe on “commission” (or so he thinks) on behalf of the California Viticulture Society to do research and collect vines. He comes back with a “slew” of cutting but there is no record of these vines or them being “distributed” throughout California (there is no recorded record of what happened to these vines). It is only after his death (and yes Sullivan in passing very briefly mentions the alligator, for a more dramatic take on this I recommend David Darlington’s, “The History and Mystery of Zinfandel”) that one hears that the Colonel is the father of the California wine industry, and responsible for bringing Zinfandel to California. In other words the story of the Colonel and his connection with Zin was “fabricated” by the son.

Salute
no avatar
User

Peter May

Rank

Pinotage Advocate

Posts

4086

Joined

Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:24 am

Location

Snorbens, England

Re: Wine Reference & History Books

by Peter May » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:23 am

As Victor says:

It was Haraszthy's son, Arpad, who made and repeated the claims that Haraszthy brought Zin to America.

At the time the claims were repudiated by historians and winemakers who had personal knowledge and they wrote articles and letters dismissing Arpads claims by giving details of Zins journey from the East Coast to California (S Francisco Evening Bulletin 1884, St Helena Star 1885)

However it seems Arpad just kept on telling his story and briefing writers, adjusting dates when necessary, until it became the accepted story repeated by later writers.

I did have a large detailed biography of Agostin Haraszthy and he was a most fascinating man who led a rich life. Steamboat captain/owner, town builder, Indian fighter, lawman, built the first jail in San Diego, Govt gold assayer & smelter, vine grower, winemaker etc etc

His death does appear to be in the jaws of a crocodlile while he was crossing a river in Nicaragua, where he had gone to set up a distillery. No trace of him was ever found.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AhrefsBot, ByteSpider, ClaudeBot and 0 guests

Powered by phpBB ® | phpBB3 Style by KomiDesign