WTN: Is this Burg premoxed?

Chassagne-Montrachet 1er cru Les Ruchottes 1996 – Domaine Ramonet – Alc.13.5%



Colour was a suspicious medium/deep yellow. The nose was very subdued with little other than cedary butter. The palate was medium bodied and interesting in flavour but disjointed with separate strands of quite bright white fruit, nuts, minerals, cedar, butter and toast together with lively acidity. I did not detect ant sherry like notes but Germaine said she did, perhaps influenced by the colour. Had I not read a TN very similar to mine on the Wiki Oxidized Burgs site where they classify the wine as premoxed (mainly due to toast), I would have judged the wine as drinkable, not as good as it should be due to lack of nose and focus, but not premoxed; 15/20.

...but disjointed with separate strands of quite bright white fruit, nuts, minerals, cedar, butter and toast...
...they classify the wine as premoxed (mainly due to toast)...

Does "toast" refer to aromas and flavors of toasted bread or is it a reference to barrel charring?

...but disjointed with separate strands of quite bright white fruit, nuts, minerals, cedar, butter and toast...
...they classify the wine as premoxed (mainly due to toast)...

Does "toast" refer to aromas and flavors of toasted bread or is it a reference to barrel charring?

In mine, I attributed it to undigested barrel odours but I may be wrong. I don't don't know in the Wiki case.

"Toast" is a torrefaction scent which makes me less suspicious of premox. The one flavor you called out that strikes me as suspicious is "nuts". Overall, though, it sounds like the bottle is shut down hard, and possibly damaged in some other way. (But please note that I am not a White Burg-ophile; it would be best to find someone with deep experience.)

The color sounds like PremOx, but not the rest of descriptors. I agree with Jeff that "nuts" can imply oxidation, but hazelnuts are also a classic WB descriptor. Even if not a great wine, sounds like you dodged the bullet (especially since Ramonet has a LOT of PremOx).

This is a white chardonnay that's 15 years old. How can you call oxidation at this point "premature"?

-Paul W.

This is a white chardonnay that's 15 years old. How can you call oxidation at this point "premature"?

-Paul W.

IMO, a white Burgundy from a site of this calibre in a "good" vintage and from a famous producer should be in its prime in its 15th year and have at least 10 more years of attractive life ahead. For example, my 92s, alas all gone, were all lovely at this age.

Yes, the '92 was lovely about 5 years ago ( and the '89 about 2 years ago).
'96s came out as big high acid wines, and everyone expected them to last, till suddenly at age 5-8 substantial numbers started showing oxidized. Same thing happened with the '99s. The strange thing is that it is seemingly random, even within a single case of wine.
People don't tend to talk about '97s or '98s as prematurely oxidized, as those weren't vintage viewed as for the long haul.
That said, this doesn't really sound like oxidation to me.

Hi - I have a couple left from a six pack. I believe that these largely suffered premox based on:
- 2 x dull, dark gold, drinkable but unexciting (circa 2005)
- 1 x bright glorious and lively (circa 2008)
- 1 x dull, dark gold, drinkable but unexciting (2010)

Cheers

All the premox burgs develop that sherry odor if left in a glass to warm up to room temp. At least that's been our experience.

Anyone have any recent experience with Ramonet and premox? Are they a drink up now proposition?? I was told recently that even Raveneau is a drink sooner rather than later which pains me a I really like their stuff with some time on it.

Would appreciate some data points on both producers.

Mike

[Robin Garr]

IMO, a white Burgundy from a site of this calibre in a "good" vintage and from a famous producer should be in its prime in its 15th year and have at least 10 more years of attractive life ahead. For example, my 92s, alas all gone, were all lovely at this age.

Agreed. Calling an upper-tier white Burg "a Chardonnay" is like calling the Mona Lisa "a painting."

Anyone have any recent experience with Ramonet and premox? Are they a drink up now proposition?? I was told recently that even Raveneau is a drink sooner rather than later which pains me a I really like their stuff with some time on it.

Would appreciate some data points on both producers.

Mike

There seem to be problems with practically all producers in an uncertain period of time in Burgundy. I say uncertain because there seems to be an ongoing discussion exactly what years were involved 1995-2004 ? A case of wine will have 2 or 3 pre moxed, (maybe a couple more) and the rest of the case will be fine. I wish I could give you a more definitive answer. Many people think that the people involved in the wine making process in Burgundy know what happened but are not admitting anything publicly for obvious reasons.

Anyone have any recent experience with Ramonet and premox? Are they a drink up now proposition?? I was told recently that even Raveneau is a drink sooner rather than later which pains me a I really like their stuff with some time on it.

Would appreciate some data points on both producers.

Mike

There seem to be problems with practically all producers in an uncertain period of time in Burgundy. I say uncertain because there seems to be an ongoing discussion exactly what years were involved 1995-2004 ? A case of wine will have 2 or 3 pre moxed, (maybe a couple more) and the rest of the case will be fine. I wish I could give you a more definitive answer. Many people think that the people involved in the wine making process in Burgundy know what happened but are not admitting anything publicly for obvious reasons.

I ask about producers specifically because one producer that I did not tie to premox issues with Bonneau du Matray which I've always thought to be bulletproof for aging and then I opened up a couple of his 2002's recently and both were premox. They along with Comte Lafon, and Raveneau I had always counted on as being pretty bottoned down andg ageable but when the Bonneau du Matrays came up poorly, my confidence in my "standards" were rocked.

Mike

Anyone have any recent experience with Ramonet and premox? Are they a drink up now proposition?? I was told recently that even Raveneau is a drink sooner rather than later which pains me a I really like their stuff with some time on it.

Would appreciate some data points on both producers.

Mike

There seem to be problems with practically all producers in an uncertain period of time in Burgundy. I say uncertain because there seems to be an ongoing discussion exactly what years were involved 1995-2004 ? A case of wine will have 2 or 3 pre moxed, (maybe a couple more) and the rest of the case will be fine. I wish I could give you a more definitive answer. Many people think that the people involved in the wine making process in Burgundy know what happened but are not admitting anything publicly for obvious reasons.

I ask about producers specifically because one producer that I did not tie to premox issues with Bonneau du Matray which I've always thought to be bulletproof for aging and then I opened up a couple of his 2002's recently and both were premox. They along with Comte Lafon, and Raveneau I had always counted on as being pretty bottoned down andg ageable but when the Bonneau du Matrays came up poorly, my confidence in my "standards" were rocked.




Being ITB I can't think of anyone well known who seems to have escaped the problem. Something went horribly wrong but I don't think we're ever going to find out what. I know i've opened quite a few disappointments.

Mike

Being ITB I can't think of anyone well known who seems to have escaped the problem. Something went horribly wrong but I don't think we're ever going to find out what. I know i've opened quite a few disappointments.

Many thanks Lou. I appreciate information!

I think most feel that Leflaive and Coche Drury seem close to immune, don't know of anyone else. Though Raveneau, Pernot, Roulot all seem to have less problems than average.
Bonneau du Martray is one of worst offenders, I can't remember last '96 or younger BdM I had that seemed fresh. Carillon, Sauzet, Ramonet, Matrot, Drouhin, Colin Deleger are all probably close to 50% poxed in '96-2002 period.
It's really impossible to say re 2004 on, they are just entering "danger zone"

I think most feel that Leflaive and Coche Drury seem close to immune, don't know of anyone else. Though Raveneau, Pernot, Roulot all seem to have less problems than average.
Bonneau du Martray is one of worst offenders, I can't remember last '96 or younger BdM I had that seemed fresh. Carillon, Sauzet, Ramonet, Matrot, Drouhin, Colin Deleger are all probably close to 50% poxed in '96-2002 period.
It's really impossible to say re 2004 on, they are just entering "danger zone"

I can recall some bitching about Leflaive, but nothing about Coche Drury. Of course how many people can afford to buy Coche Drury or how many stores can obtain it to sell?

I can recall some bitching about Leflaive, but nothing about Coche Drury. Of course how many people can afford to buy Coche Drury or how many stores can obtain it to sell?

It looks like it isn't being maintained very actively but there is/was the wiki:
http://oxidised-burgs.wikispaces.com/

For Le Montrachet I might agree, but even for a Ramonet 1er Cru I think 15 years is near the limit of what one can expect. Unless one is a British wine necrophile.

-Paul W.

For Le Montrachet I might agree, but even for a Ramonet 1er Cru I think 15 years is near the limit of what one can expect. Unless one is a British wine necrophile.

-Paul W.

I was drinking Raveneaus out of the earl 80s until about 3 to 5 years ago. Hoke should remember one an 83 we drank in San Francisco about 4 or 5 years ago. It wwas an experience like drinking liquid gold. Fabulous JBL was there that night also.

For Le Montrachet I might agree, but even for a Ramonet 1er Cru I think 15 years is near the limit of what one can expect. Unless one is a British wine necrophile.

-Paul W.

Well, tastes differ, but this necrophilic Briton finds sherry-like flavours unacceptable in 1er cru white Burgundy at age 15 when the the combination of freshness with subtlety should be irresistible.

Indeed I think it is very important that it should not be regarded as normal that these potentially great wines are becoming OTT around year 10. That would only encourage the Burgundians to ignore the problem.

Well, tastes differ, but this necrophilic Briton finds sherry-like flavours unacceptable in 1er cru white Burgundy at age 15 when the the combination of freshness with subtlety should be irresistible.
Indeed I think it is very important that it should not be regarded as normal that these potentially great wines are becoming OTT around year 10. That would only encourage the Burgundians to ignore the problem.

Agreed. I've had plenty of 1ers from Ramonet (as well as Sauzet, Niellon, Drouhin, and Carillon) from 80s and early 90s that were fresh at 15 or 20. I don't want to pay 1er prices for something to be drunk at age 5.