Tempted To Sell

I have never sold any wine. I buy wine with the idea of drinking it. I find that I am very tempted, however, to sell the Lafite that I own. When I purchased the three cases that I own (1999, 2002, & 2004) the bottle prices ranged from about $90. to $135. Wines in that range fall within my comfort zone, but $500+ bottles? I just don't think the experience would be special enough to warrant the expense! I guess it's always possible that this stuff will be worth even more in 5 or 10 years, but I'd hate to "miss the market", end up drinking the wine later on while finding out that I could be getting comparable enjoyment at $100. a bottle and kicking myself while thinking about all the $ I passed up!

Any feedback on the best way to sell would be appreciated. Does it make a huge difference if you sell a full case as opposed to not?

I'd try approaching some high end restaurants and speak to the beverage manager to see if they are interested. The only reason I mention this is that I was recently talking to a sommelier about wine. When he found that I had some 2005 Ch. Beaucastle CdP, he offered to buy it on the spot. (I did not sell.) At the least, it'll be another point of reference with which to make your decision. Good luck, Tom.

I've never sold wine, but if I had Lafite it'd be on its way to auction right now.
Yes, full case (and especially OWC) will get a premium.
Normally I'd say with 3 cases it might not be worth the time for a traditional auction house (especially with these being good but not trophy vintages). But houses are eager for Lafite now. If you can show good storage even more so.
Even better if they have a HK auction coming up.
If you are in NYC I'd start with Zachys or Acker.

Thanks, Interesting points both

Jon, considering that a restaurant would probably be charging well over $1,000. a bottle there might be an opportunity there. I never thought of that, might be good for both parties considering both would save a lot on fees. Also, they would not care about full cases so I could keep a bottle or two. Interesting.

Dale, If I go ahead and sell I think I will do exactly as you mention, look for an Asian connected auction. I'm afraid to look at my original wood cases though, believe it or not the place where I store my wine marked up a lot of my cases with huge magic marker slop. Can you imagine being so unconscious?

Tom,

The Chinese are paying ridiculous prices for anything with the 'Lafite' name on it. The name carries big weight in wining and dining as part of business dealings. Vintage matters very little. Unless you just can't live without drinking the wine I would sell it. I plan to sell my remaining 2000 Carruades de Lafite. It's bringing $250+ per bottle over there. I paid $60 per bottle for it. A decent wine, but not a $250 wine by any stretch.

On the other hand, I would consider the fact that with prices going the way they are, what you've got may be the last Lafite you ever get your hands on. So I could certainly see selling half a case of each, but I would urge you to keep the rest for the sake of having an experience that few might get to have in the future. You got it for a very reasonable price, so I don't think you should consider it a "loss" not to sell it - I'd prefer to think of it in terms of how much you saved versus if you wanted to buy it now. I've always though of that as one of the principle reasons for buying wines for the cellar - because you'd have to pay a great deal more for them down the road.

How does one easily sell their Lafite in China? Does Chicago Wine Company, for example, ship to China?

I'd only caution that retail prices that you may see do not necessarily reflect the price you can sell it for.

Acker and Zachys both regularly have Hong Kong auctions.
But prices (driven by HK/China demand) have increased all over (people buying to arbitrage)
On Winebid top Bdx with good conditions are mostly won by Intl buyers
Wanna see crazy stuff?
http://www.decanter.com/news/blogs/team ... vs-auction
those prices include the vig, but still mindblowing.
Not sure how much magic marker on OWC would hurt price.
Hey, I like Lafite, but if I could sell 3 cases, buy same vintage/amount of Haut Brion, and still pocket more than half the money (or also buy cases of whatever else I felt like), I'd do it.

other suggestions.. http://www.winebid.com will handle if for you. Or http://www.vinfolio.com. Or http://www.jjbuckley.com. Or to reach the Chinese market with some very active auctions try http://www.spectrumwine.com [I probably should add that I know the consignment director for the company from a number of wine dinners, but I have not used their services nor do I have any financial interest in the company].

All of these places will do all the dirty work for you after they check the provenance of the bottles.. the amount of vig you `pay' differs, but each of the websites tells you as a seller what that is.

"I would consider the fact that with prices going the way they are, what you've got may be the last Lafite you ever get your hands on. So I could certainly see selling half a case of each, but I would urge you to keep the rest for the sake of having an experience that few might get to have in the future. "
Yeah, I know Ray, I can't say that's not a part of my thinking. It's just that at some point it starts to get really ridiculous for a somewhat average guy! I don't know about a half case, maybe a few bottles.

Dale, that link is absolutely astounding! 17,000+ pounds for my 2002 case, 19,000+ pounds for my 2004 case. My God, I wish I had these people's phone #'s! I'd even give them a bit of a discount!

Thanks for the info & links James.

This thread got me wondering about current prices of the only first growth Bordeaux I've ever purchased (I haven't consumed it yet and may hold off until 2014). I bought a bottle of Lafite 1994 for over $100 and see on wine.searcher that outlets are asking $850 to $1300 for a bottle and it was supposedly not a particularly good vintage.

I travel to China on business and have seen the Lafite mania first hand. People advertise to purchase it in the Shanghai paper for "name your price", though I assume they will want to bargain as that is the standard practice in China. As I mentioned they are paying outrageous prices for the Carruades as well - maybe even more than the Chateau on a markup percentage basis.

More than China, I'd suggest trying to sell specifically in Hong Kong. Easier to deal in the markets there; no duty for bringing wine in and some well established, reliable names to deal with.

I'd suggest finding an established broker or retailer in HK (Vinum is a well regarded one - they've also got offices in Bangkok and Singapore) and dealing with them directly rather than having other go-betweens such as TCWC.

And as Dale said - full case good, OWC better.

Meanwhile, a fun shot I took in Hong Kong a few months ago... (1 USD = 7.78 HKD)


Cheers,

Salil (now waiting to see if Latour or Duhart Milon gets Lafited next)

Yes, the Carraudes thing is even more mindboggling.

Jane,
the 94 Lafite was a nice (if young/closed) wine about 6 years ago. But it is selling for what I think is a ridiculous premium to even other first growths. The issue is of course whether it's worth selling a single bottle- b&m auction houses won't be interested, not enough for winebid, and you'll suffer on Winecommune from not having history. But you still could sell at a profit that would make most stock market investors envious- you could try the restaurant idea, or a retailer (might do better with store credit), or try a US buyer (there's a Chinese gentleman who has posted on Commerce Corner on WB if you look there, others had good luck selling him their Lafite/Carruades).

Salil,
sure the HK retailers offer good prices, but for the non-professional seller I'd suggest doing simplest. For a NYCer that would be Zachys, Acker, or Christies, all of whom have HK auctions. For less than a few hundred bottles, it's not worth (IMHO) dealing with Midwest or West Coast, or Asian businesses. For 3 cases, a local house can do inspections/pickup for far less than HDH or JJB or a HK entity.

I'm not usually an advocate for selling wine. I have actually never done so (except as a favor for friends). But Lafite has outpaced it's brethren over last few years by factors of 2-5X. And I've heard NO ONE who has claimed that is based on what it tastes like. So if you buy to drink, the logical move is to turn that Lafite into a bottle of Haut Brion- plus a bottle of Mouton, a Figeac, a Leoville Barton, an Evangile, and a Rauzan Segla.

Tom,

Like you, I buy my wine with the intention of drinking it. I only ever sold wine at auction once. I bought 6 bottles of 1982 Mouton-Rothschild just after it arrived on the retail market (not on futures). A few days before I'd had a chance to taste it and was very impressed. 15 years later, I opened one of my bottles (kept meanwhile in a temperature-controlled cellar) and was very much underwhelmed. I sold off the remaining five bottles at auction at the Chicago Wine Company and made a very good profit.

You say you paid $90-135 for that Lafite and that is within your comfort range. If I were in your position, I'd drink the wines and enjoy them. The knowledge that anyone who wants that experience today has to pay upwards of $500 would just make the wine taste that much better for me. Remember, they're not $500+ bottles for YOU--for you they're still $90-135 bottles.

And as was already pointed out, this may be your only opportunity to experience Lafite, since the prices have skyrocketed and show no sign of coming down ever again.

So I say keep them and drink them.

If you really do want to sell, I found the Chicago Wine Company to be an excellent auction resource. And yes, it's easier to move full or half cases than odd bottle lots.

Given the feeding frenzy in China at the moment, Hong Kong sounds like the way to get top dollar at auction.

-Paul W.

Paul:
"You say you paid $90-135 for that Lafite and that is within your comfort range. If I were in your position, I'd drink the wines and enjoy them. The knowledge that anyone who wants that experience today has to pay upwards of $500 would just make the wine taste that much better for me. Remember, they're not $500+ bottles for YOU--for you they're still $90-135 bottles."

Generally speaking Paul, that's how I look at it, and I'd be inclined to hang on to a few bottles. In this case though, it's so extreme that it's hard not to see the logic in Dale's point:

Dale:
"I'm not usually an advocate for selling wine. I have actually never done so (except as a favor for friends). But Lafite has outpaced it's brethren over last few years by factors of 2-5X. And I've heard NO ONE who has claimed that is based on what it tastes like. So if you buy to drink, the logical move is to turn that Lafite into a bottle of Haut Brion- plus a bottle of Mouton, a Figeac, a Leoville Barton, an Evangile, and a Rauzan Segla."

Actually, Dale and others, I don't plan to try to sell my one bottle of Lafite 1994. I was just checking out the crazy prices it is drawing from retailers. I will probably hold it to the 20-year mark and then open it for a special occasion.

Paul, hey, if it were $500 I'd probably say drink them as well. But if you back out the figures from October auction mentioned, once you get to hammer, even if seller paid full seller's premium (which is not always the case) those OWCs led to prices between $1500 and $1800 a bottle. So, even if the markers take off a bit, and even if market cools (hasn't yet, even crazier prices in Dec) it's hard to believe Tom wouldn't clear $800-1000 per.

So if you buy to drink, the logical move is to turn that Lafite into a bottle of Haut Brion- plus a bottle of Mouton, a Figeac, a Leoville Barton, an Evangile, and a Rauzan Segla.

I really like this suggestion, Dale.

More than China, I'd suggest trying to sell specifically in Hong Kong. Easier to deal in the markets there; no duty for bringing wine in and some well established, reliable names to deal with.

Salil,

Actually, the price I was offered for the Carruades to be sold into China (with duty) was better than the HK price, though I did not shop around much. Private brokers can handle the logistics making it pain free for the individual. That said, I haven't actually sold my wine yet so your mileage may vary.

Paul, hey, if it were $500 I'd probably say drink them as well. But if you back out the figures from October auction mentioned, once you get to hammer, even if seller paid full seller's premium (which is not always the case) those OWCs led to prices between $1500 and $1800 a bottle. So, even if the markers take off a bit, and even if market cools (hasn't yet, even crazier prices in Dec) it's hard to believe Tom wouldn't clear $800-1000 per.

I have to agree--that kind of profit can finance a LOT of great wine.

-Paul W.

It's a lovely decision to have to agonize over, sure never expected to have to!

I've been checking into the value of my '99,'02 &'04 cases of Lafite. A WLDG member very kindly emailed me a referral to a contact who informed me as follows regarding selling the wine through them at an Hong Kong auction: "Lafite 1999 has been selling for about $10k a case; the 2002 and 2004, about $9k a case. Our current estimates are $8k – 12k/case on the 1999 and $7k – 10k on the other two, as our approach is to try to set estimates where the midpoint is the expected result. Our reserves on OWCs are 90% of the low estimate but because we try to be realistic about our ranges, that doesn’t happen often, and pretty much never on Lafite (barring something changing in the world at large between now and the sale)." And they have a transaction fee of about 7%.

Another source tells me feel they can get me $9,500. per case net to me without the auction process, which saves me any uncertainty as to the market changing between now and the auction, say 3-4 months out. Of course, it also eliminates any upside. What to do?

I really wanted to hang onto at least some of the '99, but this is crazy. I just don't know if I'd enjoy drinking an $850. bottle of wine! I keep thinking, is this bottle going to provide more enjoyment for instance than an '85 Phelps Eisele or Insignia, an '89 Beaucastel, an '01 Serpico, an '07 CNDP Les Grandes Grenachieres d'Hippolyte or so many other great wines in my cellar? Help me out here, I've never tasted Lafite, my senses are OK but I am not possessed of Parker-Like facilities, is there any chance that I will taste Lafite and say "How Incredible! Thank Goodness I didn't sell this stuff!"

Look, none of the huge increase in Lafite prices has anything to do with how the wine tastes- that hasn't suddenly changed. So take advantage of the hype.
You wanted to taste '99 Lafite? HDH shows a 375 for $375. Or for about $1000 of your profit, you can buy 375s of the '99 Latour, Ch. Margaux, and Mouton, and a full bottle of the Haut Brion (which I liked better than Lafite side by side).

Yeah, you're right Dale, see that's what I need here, the input of a well reasoned man with good ideas! As I say, I've never had Lafite, but I must admit now that I think about it, even when I bought these wines as futures it was never only about the wine in the bottles. Sure I wanted to taste a first growth, and I did expect it to be special, but there was always the element of "specialness", the opportunity to make a special occasion REALLY SPECIAL, and to be able to treat wine friends to a relative rarity. At current value, however, I am fairly certain that although my wine friends and relatives would be thankful for the experience, the predominant thought running around in their heads would be " I can't believe he actually opened this, how many cases of really good wine could he have had instead"!

When you say "...and a full bottle of Haut Brion ( which I liked better that Lafite side by side )", it really puts it in perspective.

This stuff is just out of my league. What the hell, if I ever inherit an oil well, or win lotto, I can always buy a few dozen cases, the price won't bother me at all then!