Orange Wines In Calif ???

We were tasting thru some unusual whites last night, some of which were orange wines. Not sure the exact definition of "orange" wine, but to me it means a white, or gris, wine made w/ some or extended skin contact, instead of just pressing the white juice immediately off the skins.
The big proponents of this technique are, of course, Radikon and Gravner and Movia in Friuli. Their wine generally sell for big $$$'s, which would seem to make the technique much more attractive around the world, not just in Friuli/Slovenia.
Since Friuli/Slovenia is the hotbed for this technique, it seems mostly to be applied to the Friulian grape varieties. But what about its application to other varieties, like GWT (which has a slight pigmentation), Riesling, Chard, CheninBlanc, Vitovska?? Tracey&Jared use it a bit on their Roussanne.
The technique of making orange wines is, of course, a matter of degree. You can use minimal skin contact, a few hrs or a few days, or extended skin contact, a few months or a year, as with Radikon/Gravner. The orange color of these wines supposedly comes from the slight pigmentation the wines pick up from skin contact. I find these wines also, sometimes, have a slight oxidative character. Does that come, hand in hand, from the skin contact...or is it a product of the amphorae aging some of those producers use? Or do they intentionally allow some degree of O2 exposure in the production of orange wines?
There has been some use of the technique in Calif. A few producers come to mind: PaxMahle/WindGap, Tracy&Jared/Donkey&Goat, maybe Duncan&Nathan/Arnot-Roberts. Any other Calif (or WashState/OR) producers come to mind??
My appreciation of orange wines is sort of a mixed bag. Many of them are just downright weird. Sometimes the oxidative element is just too strong. Sometimes the smell/taste of mouse turds in them is a bit off-putting. But I generally find them most interesting to try. As certain Monktown attourneys claim (in a different context), they are not wines for people who cannot think outside the box.
Anyway, just sorta curious about the subject.
Tom

Tom

Scholium Project has been making Oranges wines for several years. If you can find it try the 2006 Rocky Hill Vineyard San Floriano Del Collio Reserva:

http://www.scholiumwines.com/2006_SFDC_ris.html

Or alternatively the easier to find Farina Vineyards Prince in His Caves:

http://www.scholiumwines.com/2009_prince.html

Others that I know of that would be considered orange wines from California:

Cowan Cellars - Sking fermented Sauvignon Blanc Silver Pines Vineyard

La Clarine Farm - Skin fermented viognier

Natural Process Alliance - http://www.naturalprocessalliance.us/home

From Oregon:

Francis Tannahill Jack

From New York:

Red Hook Winery Sauvignon Blanc (made by Abe Schoener)

Channing Daughters

I am sure there are more. If you find more let me know I am keeping a list!

Tom
Scholium Project has been making Oranges wines for several years. If you can find it try the 2006 Rocky Hill Vineyard San Floriano Del Collio Reserva:
http://www.scholiumwines.com/2006_SFDC_ris.html
Or alternatively the easier to find Farina Vineyards Prince in His Caves:
http://www.scholiumwines.com/2009_prince.html

Thanks, Robert. I'd forgotten about Abe's versions.
I have the Prince to try in my tableau.
Tom

Tom,
In 2008 I did a skin-contact sauvignon blanc that was fermented to dry and pressed off the skins. It has a brassy, orange color and does not look, smell or taste like SB. 20 cases made to be released this coming January.
In 2010 I did the same thing and it is presently finishing up ML in barrel. Anticipated release of January, 2012, with about 160 cases made.
In taste trials I find the aromas and flavors to be pear, all-spice, tonic water, resin and something akin to fresh herbs. The alcohol is low, the acid high, its bone dry, has some noticeable tannin and, overall, is clearly meant to accompany food.
Surprisingly, it seems to go with more dishes then I would have first thought.

I also think that John Kongsgaard is making a full skin-contact ribolla gialla for Vare with most of the production being sold to Thomas Keller's restaurants.

I recently had the 2009 Arnot-Roberts, ribolla from the Vare vineyard and loved it - but it was not done with skin-contact (or if it was, the contact was minimal).

Best, Jim

Tom, there seems to be an acceptance of "orange wines" at least there are many more of them than a couple of years ago. In fact I sat next to Robert Dentice last month when we tasted 37 different oranges at a tasting at Alto a very upscale restaurant in Manhattan NY. It was a mixed bag but overall there were many I would be happy to drink.

The technique of making orange wines is, of course, a matter of degree. You can use minimal skin contact, a few hrs or a few days, or extended skin contact, a few months or a year

Wines that have undergone skin contact for less than a number of days tend not to be called orange wines. The exact timing is not absolute of course, but numerous whites (e.g. Gewurtz, Chard) undergo skin contact for a few hours / overnight and these have never been called orange wines.

I find these wines also, sometimes, have a slight oxidative character. Does that come, hand in hand, from the skin contact...or is it a product of the amphorae aging some of those producers use? Or do they intentionally allow some degree of O2 exposure in the production of orange wines?

I find the same thing and I put it down to oxygen exposure (whether intentional or not) during winemaking.

The technique seems to have been spreading (from Friuli-Venezia Giulia/Croatia/Slovenia) to other parts of the world increasingly over recent years. I'd love to read any notes you or anyone else here has on the Californians.

I find these wines also, sometimes, have a slight oxidative character. Does that come, hand in hand, from the skin contact...or is it a product of the amphorae aging some of those producers use? Or do they intentionally allow some degree of O2 exposure in the production of orange wines?

I had always thought that this oxidative characteristic was the definition of orange wines. Thanks for introducing the tech side of this with the skin contact time which I had not even thought about.

But I a bit lost and would like to ask a question. if the time of skin contact can range from hours to years, that seems to be a really large range for skin contact to produce color. With such a large time range, how than that be a defining feature in orange wines? With roses, another "color" wine, that contact range is significantly tighter in order to be a rose and yes, there is a broad range from almost white with a ting of colour to almost red but overall, the time range would be from hours to days versus hours to years.

Many thanks in advance.
Mike

I had always thought that this oxidative characteristic was the definition of orange wines.

Nope.
Bea's Santa Chiara is an example of an old world skin-contact wine made reductively.
I make mine that way, too. I make it the same as I do any table wine; once fermentation and ML are finished and the protective layer of CO2 is gone, we top up and sulphur. And we keep our barrels topped up and our free sulphur sufficient to keep the environment both antiseptic and non-oxidative.
I still get color in the wine - perhaps, not as orange as some, but sort of a brassy, transparent orange. Curiously, the color seems to deepen with time spent in bottle.
And as for trying to define what is an orange wine, I think we get to picky. If it looks orange-ish and has been fermented on the skins, isn't that good enough?
Best, Jim

I find the same thing and I put it down to oxygen exposure (whether intentional or not) during winemaking.

The technique seems to have been spreading (from Friuli-Venezia Giulia/Croatia/Slovenia) to other parts of the world increasingly over recent years. I'd love to read any notes you or anyone else here has on the Californians.

Thanks for the comments. Will put up some notes om a few orange wines this evening (Some Unusual Whites).
Tom

But I a bit lost and would like to ask a question. if the time of skin contact can range from hours to years, that seems to be a really large range for skin contact to produce color. With such a large time range, how than that be a defining feature in orange wines? With roses, another "color" wine, that contact range is significantly tighter in order to be a rose and yes, there is a broad range from almost white with a ting of colour to almost red but overall, the time range would be from hours to days versus hours to years.
Many thanks in advance.
Mike

Well...I'm a bit lost, too, Mike. For grapes like PinotGris/GWT/TrosseauGris/etc that have a faint pigmentation, the color of the wine must obviously be a function
of the length of skin contact. For grapes like Chard/Ribolla/Vitovska/Riesling/etc; I'm not sure what role the skin contact plays in the color of the wine. For
wines that are made in an oxidative style/aged in amphora; then clearly the degree of oxygen exposure plays a role in the color of the wine, with more
of a brown component. But I'm sorta trying to figure it all out.
Tom

Well...I'm a bit lost, too, Mike. For grapes like PinotGris/GWT/TrosseauGris/etc that have a faint pigmentation, the color of the wine must obviously be a function
of the length of skin contact. For grapes like Chard/Ribolla/Vitovska/Riesling/etc; I'm not sure what role the skin contact plays in the color of the wine. For
wines that are made in an oxidative style/aged in amphora; then clearly the degree of oxygen exposure plays a role in the color of the wine, with more
of a brown component. But I'm sorta trying to figure it all out.
Tom

Nope.
Bea's Santa Chiara is an example of an old world skin-contact wine made reductively.
I make mine that way, too. I make it the same as I do any table wine; once fermentation and ML are finished and the protective layer of CO2 is gone, we top up and sulphur. And we keep our barrels topped up and our free sulphur sufficient to keep the environment both antiseptic and non-oxidative.
I still get color in the wine - perhaps, not as orange as some, but sort of a brassy, transparent orange. Curiously, the color seems to deepen with time spent in bottle.
And as for trying to define what is an orange wine, I think we get to picky. If it looks orange-ish and has been fermented on the skins, isn't that good enough?
Best, Jim

Many thanks for that Jim and Tom! I had been rather confused on that definition so definitely needed more your insight. Much appreciate that!

Mike

I think Thor Iverson did a nice job defining (or attempt to define) “orange wines”

http://oenologic.blogspot.com/2009/08/a ... trade.html

Salute

I think Thor Iverson did a nice job defining (or attempt to define) “orange wines”

http://oenologic.blogspot.com/2009/08/a ... trade.html

Salute

Many thanks! Nice article! and glad that he also mentioned that defining orange wines was not easy for him either.

Robert -

Thanks for the list. I don't have anything else to add yet, but will keep you in mind if I come across anything new.

Although the Scholium wines are usually a little high in alcohol for me (though I really like what Abe Schoener is doing in terms of his creativity and commitment to terroir) - the Channing Daughters Meditazione is really nice.

Larry and Christopher (and the rest of the crew) are doing some wonderful things at Channing Daughters. They’re production is not that large only 7,000 cases, but their portfolio is BIG! I believe they offer over 25 different bottlings in their portfolio (this number seems to increase every couple of years). Meditazoine (300 cases or so produced) is not the only artisan “orange wine” they offer. Ramato (little over 200 cases produced) and Envelope (only 78 cases produced) was just added to the list of “orange wines”.

Salute

I think Thor Iverson did a nice job defining (or attempt to define) “orange wines”

http://oenologic.blogspot.com/2009/08/a ... trade.html

Salute

Somewhat of a coincidence but Levi Dalton put on the tasting I mentioned in my post above. Same people own Convivio, Alto, and Marea, three very good Italian oriented restaurants.
Levi very knowledgeable about the wines presented.