WTN: 1996 Chateau Haut-Batailley

What a classic damned Pauillac for a little Fifth Growth!!!! All the stuffing of wonderful masculine study leather chair, cigar box, cedar, a surprisingly minute long finish, and a conduit to feeling the best one can feel about one’s Self and the universe - real classy stuff that only a great left bank season and a great cab together can bring to life. And there is but a window through which the picture is painted at its best, making it an art form more precious than a million dollar painting, in both the bottle’s lifetime and, metaphorically, I guess, in Bordeaux’s lifetime. Today, putting away a classed growth to bring it out at just the right time is the dominion of multi-millionaires only, or blokes so obsessed with classic Bordeaux that they will sacrifice their kids’ education for it. The Chinese have co-opted Bordeaux like they have bought America. I tip my hat to them, but I cannot drink them.

Looks liek a lovely wine that has matured nicely. Thanks for sharing, will keep that in my wish list should a bargain is found!

I think the juxtaposition of the above two posts is lovely .

Hey, the Chinese role in the inflated prices of fine wine (other than first growth Bordeaux) has yet to be known with any precision.

Also, when the dollar was strong, and all the crème de la crème went to America, did I see people complaining?

Historically, the finest wines of France have always been, to a great extent, exported.
It doesn't bother the French...

Best regards,
Alex R.

Today, putting away a classed growth to bring it out at just the right time is the dominion of multi-millionaires only, or blokes so obsessed with classic Bordeaux that they will sacrifice their kids’ education for it.

Haut Batailley is out there for $30 for the 2006, $35 for the 2005 and 2009. That's not cheap, but it's not for multi-millionaires only.
As Alex hints, I don't know that much wine price inflation (other than Lafite/Carraudes) can be directly traced to Asian markets.

I think the juxtaposition of the above two posts is lovely .

Hey, the Chinese role in the inflated prices of fine wine (other than first growth Bordeaux) has yet to be known with any precision.

Also, when the dollar was strong, and all the crème de la crème went to America, did I see people complaining?

Historically, the finest wines of France have always been, to a great extent, exported.
It doesn't bother the French...

Best regards,
Alex R.

Yes, Eric’s post admittedly pulled me up a little bit.

There was one elephant in the room, now there are two; and only one Bordeaux. The Chinese didn’t complain because until recently they had little interest, and now the main idea of buying Bordeaux is to make the statement that one is rich. I work for the Chinese. I talk with them about how they buy the First Growths but don’t even think about drinking them. They mostly give them to people they are trying to impress; who, I suppose, give them to people they are trying to impress.

The Chinese don’t bother much with the Third, Fourth and Fifth Grows, but when Americans such as myself can no longer afford the First and Seconds (in good conscience – or maybe we just like feeling like suckers) we make a run on the “lesser” growths, driving up the prices. Maybe the Chinese folks I have talked to are outliers and maybe what I am saying isn’t documented economically; but it stands to reason that two elephants eat more than one.

Eric, what say you, my good man??? Am I full of American baloney; or, in other words, wrong?

[David M. Bueker]

Covert,

Americans are not driving up the prices. The Bordelais are setting the prices through the futures campaign. The 2008s have barely moved, and while not cheap, they were not outrageous (except the 1st growths and those with designs on same). To give one example, Branaire-Ducru is still available at my local merchant for $43 for the 2008 pre-arrival. I would not say that the price has been driven up.

Today, putting away a classed growth to bring it out at just the right time is the dominion of multi-millionaires only, or blokes so obsessed with classic Bordeaux that they will sacrifice their kids’ education for it.

Haut Batailley is out there for $30 for the 2006, $35 for the 2005 and 2009. That's not cheap, but it's not for multi-millionaires only.
As Alex hints, I don't know that much wine price inflation (other than Lafite/Carraudes) can be directly traced to Asian markets.

You are right. You have likewise before picked me up on my sloppiness. I know Haut Batailley can be purchased inexpensively, and I am buying the 2006's, which I like a lot. There are a few good values still out there, - Cantemerle, for another example. Many of my erstwhile stable mates, however, such as Malescot, have gone up a lot, and I no longer buy a few First and Second Growths, which have become much more expensive. In general, fine Bordeaux generally has gone up a lot, at least where I buy them. I am curious as to what Eric, or perhaps another Chinese forum member, has to say about my assumption for one of the main reasons for the escalation.

Covert,

Americans are not driving up the prices. The Bordelais are setting the prices through the futures campaign. The 2008s have barely moved, and while not cheap, they were not outrageous (except the 1st growths and those with designs on same). To give one example, Branaire-Ducru is still available at my local merchant for $43 for the 2008 pre-arrival. I would not say that the price has been driven up.

I didn't say Americans, I said the Chinese. I'm not going to argue the point anymore, though. I just tossed out what I said for consideration. You and Dale are welcome to consider it to be incorrect, or ever nonsense. Maybe it is.

I didn't say Americans, I said the Chinese..

"when Americans such as myself can no longer afford the First and Seconds...we make a run on the “lesser” growths, driving up the prices..."

I didn't say Americans, I said the Chinese..

"when Americans such as myself can no longer afford the First and Seconds...we make a run on the “lesser” growths, driving up the prices..."

I agree, of course, it just wasn't my original point.

Covert,

Americans are not driving up the prices. The Bordelais are setting the prices through the futures campaign. The 2008s have barely moved, and while not cheap, they were not outrageous (except the 1st growths and those with designs on same). To give one example, Branaire-Ducru is still available at my local merchant for $43 for the 2008 pre-arrival. I would not say that the price has been driven up.

I see after the fact that I did indeed say the Americans are part of the problem, but only now because the Chinese are buying a lot more. Everyone who is part of the demand drives up the prices. If the Chinese were not buying like they are the prices would not be as high.

First of all, let me clarify that in the last few years, I tend to agree that it's Chinese from Mainland Chinese (MLC) who is driving up the prices but only on a handful of selceted fine wines e.g. Lafite, Carruades des Lafite and maybe some Duhart Milon bearing the five arrows logo. I doubt if they are the only culprit of driving up the rest of the Bordeaux wine prices. I was born and raised in HK but witnessing the surge from MLC in the last few years (they buy Lafite in cases, by cash, within minutes of time). That said, you can still find some reasonable prices on Mouton , Marguaux and Haut Brion. Of course, gone were the days when I can buy a bottle of Lafite for less than $100USD.

US drove up the prices of Bordeaux in the late 90s and early 2000s where the US economy is probably the strongest that time. French saw the opportunity and set higher en Primeur prices and this is purely supply and demand and is nothing wrong in it ( same happens in 2009's prices where French capitalising on the surge of MLC). En Primeur prices on 2002 and 2008 are much lower than the other years reflecting the economic situation (esp. US's) plus taking into account of overall quality of the vintage concerned during that time.

Today, I am still able to find bargain wines in 3rd to 5th growth where a btl of 06 Lagrange is selling for less than $40 USD and Cantemerle for 30USD. It's not affecting me at all since I seldom drink wines that are more than 100USD and most of my wines drank are less than 50USD. the market for Lafite and the likes are becoming a different market that i have laready given up on.

In theory if demand is up (by additional MLC forces) the supply stays the same, price will go up, simple as that. MLC may not fully appreciate wine today, but in times, they will be more educated and by then you would see a more radical rise in wine prices across the board.

just my personal opinion.

[David M. Bueker]

Covert,

Americans are not driving up the prices. The Bordelais are setting the prices through the futures campaign. The 2008s have barely moved, and while not cheap, they were not outrageous (except the 1st growths and those with designs on same). To give one example, Branaire-Ducru is still available at my local merchant for $43 for the 2008 pre-arrival. I would not say that the price has been driven up.

I didn't say Americans, I said the Chinese. I'm not going to argue the point anymore, though. I just tossed out what I said for consideration. You and Dale are welcome to consider it to be incorrect, or ever nonsense. Maybe it is.

I was referring to lesser growths (e.g. Branaire) and your statement "when Americans such as myself can no longer afford the First and Seconds (in good conscience – or maybe we just like feeling like suckers) we make a run on the “lesser” growths, driving up the prices."

So you did refer to Americans driving up the prices in the context I was referring to. I just do not see it happening, except as dictated by pricing in top vintages (e.g. 2009), and that's initially set in Bordeaux.

Covert,

Americans are not driving up the prices. The Bordelais are setting the prices through the futures campaign. The 2008s have barely moved, and while not cheap, they were not outrageous (except the 1st growths and those with designs on same). To give one example, Branaire-Ducru is still available at my local merchant for $43 for the 2008 pre-arrival. I would not say that the price has been driven up.

I didn't say Americans, I said the Chinese. I'm not going to argue the point anymore, though. I just tossed out what I said for consideration. You and Dale are welcome to consider it to be incorrect, or ever nonsense. Maybe it is.

I was referring to lesser growths (e.g. Branaire) and your statement "when Americans such as myself can no longer afford the First and Seconds (in good conscience – or maybe we just like feeling like suckers) we make a run on the “lesser” growths, driving up the prices."

So you did refer to Americans driving up the prices in the context I was referring to. I just do not see it happening, except as dictated by pricing in top vintages (e.g. 2009), and that's initially set in Bordeaux.

I agree. David, did you see my post in which I admitted that you were right and I had overlooked the fact that I had indeed made that statement?

[David M. Bueker]

Umm...nope. Sorry. Skimming quickly prior to coffee.

First of all, let me clarify that in the last few years, I tend to agree that it's Chinese from Mainland Chinese (MLC) who is driving up the prices but only on a handful of selceted fine wines e.g. Lafite, Carruades des Lafite and maybe some Duhart Milon bearing the five arrows logo. I doubt if they are the only culprit of driving up the rest of the Bordeaux wine prices. I was born and raised in HK but witnessing the surge from MLC in the last few years (they buy Lafite in cases, by cash, within minutes of time). That said, you can still find some reasonable prices on Mouton , Marguaux and Haut Brion. Of course, gone were the days when I can buy a bottle of Lafite for less than $100USD.

US drove up the prices of Bordeaux in the late 90s and early 2000s where the US economy is probably the strongest that time. French saw the opportunity and set higher en Primeur prices and this is purely supply and demand and is nothing wrong in it ( same happens in 2009's prices where French capitalising on the surge of MLC). En Primeur prices on 2002 and 2008 are much lower than the other years reflecting the economic situation (esp. US's) plus taking into account of overall quality of the vintage concerned during that time.

Today, I am still able to find bargain wines in 3rd to 5th growth where a btl of 06 Lagrange is selling for less than $40 USD and Cantemerle for 30USD. It's not affecting me at all since I seldom drink wines that are more than 100USD and most of my wines drank are less than 50USD. the market for Lafite and the likes are becoming a different market that i have laready given up on.

In theory if demand is up (by additional MLC forces) the supply stays the same, price will go up, simple as that. MLC may not fully appreciate wine today, but in times, they will be more educated and by then you would see a more radical rise in wine prices across the board.

just my personal opinion.

Thanks, Eric, for chiming in. I would just add that when you say you can still buy Mouton, Marguaux and Haut Brion for reasonable prices, you are speaking from a rich person's perspective. I bought 1999 First Growths for around $160, but I don't think you can touch a First Growth now for even double that. MLC is probably the biggest single group driving up the prices, though, wouldn't you say? The rest of the demand is spread throughout the world and fueled simply by the expanding world's population. If 1% of the world can buy First and Second Growths with ease, you are still talking about 80 million people. Take out the kids and you still have 30 or 40 million. In 30 or 40 years hence, if the world doesn't collapse under the weight and clamor of competing people, rich people would grow to 60 or 80 million out of the population, and there is still just one Bordeaux. But, as you say, there are still good values for us in the Forth and Fifth Growths, so après nous le deluge.

Dear Covert,
To be honest , I am a victim of it too. Well I still managed to buy a few 2008 lafite for $220USD and my friend got a case of Latour 2008 for $200USD thanks to my help!

I just simply cannot afford 2009 1st growth at all......

Gone were those days when I can get a btl of lafite 2002 for $85USD!

cheers