If wine was political I would be on the right side

I posted this on a local wine board and the devil made me post it here.

"I think the wine drinking world is like politics, 50% on the "right" side and then there is the other side. I happen to be drinking the '08 Vinterra PN from NZ and it is very nice. Bright fruit, lots of things going on, 12.5% alc and a great food match. This is the "right" side. The other side seems to like overripe fruit, wines that won't last more than a couple of years, high alcohol and a hefty dose of oak. I propose that most of the wine drinking world is on the "right" side and only the US and RP are on the other side. Reasons to be on the "right" side: 1) the wines go great with food and usually are not drank by themselves, 2) the wines are lower in alcohol and therefore you can drink more(a big plus), 3) the wines are more complex and cerebral and 4) you are being environmentally friendly by saving oak trees. What side are you on??? It is possible that I am wrong."
Infinity Head

[David M. Bueker]

The issue is infinitely more complex than you make it out to be, and by going with the "right" (and presumably wrong based on the way you wrote your statement/manifesto) terminology you tap into the absolute worst trend in America - us versus them.

But let's tackle this one point at a time shall we?

1) the wines go great with food and usually are not drank by themselves
Strawman #1Tonight I thoroughly enjoyed a couple of glasses of 2009 Brun Morgon. The food I was having was not a good match, so I drank the wine on its own, and it was a lot of fun. Certainly last night I had it with some grilled chicken, and it was good then too, but there's no need to restrict wine to a specific role. I love sitting down on Friday evening after the work week, and just having a glass of something. Sometimes it's California Pinot Noir (Rhys anyone? Anthill Farms?). Sometimes it's F.X. Pichler Riesling Smaragd (alcohol warning Walt). And once in a while it's Turley Petite Sirah just to prove your point. But if it's that Turley the rest is a great match with a grilled steak (something I also happen to like, despite what my doctor says).

2) the wines are lower in alcohol and therefore you can drink more(a big plus)
Strawman #2. While I am not a huge fan of high alcohol, you are drawing the line at a level where you are allowing yourself to be fooled by what is on the label. There's great wine at a myriad of alcohol levels (heck, Florida Jim is drinking Scholium for cripes sake!), and with the normal labeling allowance your limit goes way up to 14% (my preferred limit by the way, though I do not reject wines out of hand for being above that). Wines like Ridge Monte Bello, Leoville Barton, Truchot(!) have gone above the 12.5% mark, and they still go with food. Much of the output of Chianti Classico is above 12.5% (dare I say all without dragging up the data? Perhaps not.). Dry German Riesling, which is an extraordinary partner with food is regularly at 13% or even a little higher. I suppose if you are restricting yourself to German Riesling Kabinett or Spatlese, Moscato or Aussie Semillon then I can agree, but otherwise not so much.

3) the wines are more complex and cerebral
Only if you want them to be. A well aged Burgundy is indeed a thing to contemplate, but wow would that be a boring existence to have to sit there and contemplate a wine rather than sometimes just enjoying it. Sometimes it's good to just toss back a glass of that kabinett or Dolcetto or whatever other wine. Sometimes a very well made Cabernet from California (Monte Bello again anyone, how about Karl Lawrence, and trust me, if you ever had it, Screaming Eagle would command your attention, even if it was not your cup of tea) is very complex and worth spending time with. I could list myriad of examples, but I won't for sake of time and carpal tunnel.

4) you are being environmentally friendly by saving oak trees
Forests used for barrels are continually replanted. Non-starter here. Nothing more to be said.

It's not about right or wrong. It's not about high alcohol versus low alcohol. It's not even RP against the world, despite what some folks want to portray. Wine is full of infinite variations, and to turn it into a political debate is the surest way to destroy it, even more than flying winemakers and points giving critics.

I was actually thinking about starting one of my "rumblings about wine" posts tonight, so thanks for getting me going.

The issue is infinitely more complex than you make it out to be, and by going with the "right" (and presumably wrong based on the way you wrote your statement/manifesto) terminology you tap into the absolute worst trend in America - us versus them.

But let's tackle this one point at a time shall we?

1) the wines go great with food and usually are not drank by themselves
Strawman #1Tonight I thoroughly enjoyed a couple of glasses of 2009 Brun Morgon. The food I was having was not a good match, so I drank the wine on its own, and it was a lot of fun. Certainly last night I had it with some grilled chicken, and it was good then too, but there's no need to restrict wine to a specific role. I love sitting down on Friday evening after the work week, and just having a glass of something. Sometimes it's California Pinot Noir (Rhys anyone? Anthill Farms?). Sometimes it's F.X. Pichler Riesling Smaragd (alcohol warning Walt). And once in a while it's Turley Petite Sirah just to prove your point. But if it's that Turley the rest is a great match with a grilled steak (something I also happen to like, despite what my doctor says).

2) the wines are lower in alcohol and therefore you can drink more(a big plus)
Strawman #2. While I am not a huge fan of high alcohol, you are drawing the line at a level where you are allowing yourself to be fooled by what is on the label. There's great wine at a myriad of alcohol levels (heck, Florida Jim is drinking Scholium for cripes sake!), and with the normal labeling allowance your limit goes way up to 14% (my preferred limit by the way, though I do not reject wines out of hand for being above that). Wines like Ridge Monte Bello, Leoville Barton, Truchot(!) have gone above the 12.5% mark, and they still go with food. Much of the output of Chianti Classico is above 12.5% (dare I say all without dragging up the data? Perhaps not.). Dry German Riesling, which is an extraordinary partner with food is regularly at 13% or even a little higher. I suppose if you are restricting yourself to German Riesling Kabinett or Spatlese, Moscato or Aussie Semillon then I can agree, but otherwise not so much.

3) the wines are more complex and cerebral
Only if you want them to be. A well aged Burgundy is indeed a thing to contemplate, but wow would that be a boring existence to have to sit there and contemplate a wine rather than sometimes just enjoying it. Sometimes it's good to just toss back a glass of that kabinett or Dolcetto or whatever other wine. Sometimes a very well made Cabernet from California (Monte Bello again anyone, how about Karl Lawrence, and trust me, if you ever had it, Screaming Eagle would command your attention, even if it was not your cup of tea) is very complex and worth spending time with. I could list myriad of examples, but I won't for sake of time and carpal tunnel.

4) you are being environmentally friendly by saving oak trees
Forests used for barrels are continually replanted. Non-starter here. Nothing more to be said.

It's not about right or wrong. It's not about high alcohol versus low alcohol. It's not even RP against the world, despite what some folks want to portray. Wine is full of infinite variations, and to turn it into a political debate is the surest way to destroy it, even more than flying winemakers and points giving critics.

I was actually thinking about starting one of my "rumblings about wine" posts tonight, so thanks for getting me going.

David,
Sorry, think you took this way too serious but will give in and say you are definitely on the left side.
Walt

[David M. Bueker]

Not at all Walt. You gave me the perfect excuse for a rant.

The issue is infinitely more complex than you make it out to be, and by going with the "right" (and presumably wrong based on the way you wrote your statement/manifesto) terminology you tap into the absolute worst trend in America - us versus them.

But let's tackle this one point at a time shall we?

1) the wines go great with food and usually are not drank by themselves
Strawman #1Tonight I thoroughly enjoyed a couple of glasses of 2009 Brun Morgon. The food I was having was not a good match, so I drank the wine on its own, and it was a lot of fun. Certainly last night I had it with some grilled chicken, and it was good then too, but there's no need to restrict wine to a specific role. I love sitting down on Friday evening after the work week, and just having a glass of something. Sometimes it's California Pinot Noir (Rhys anyone? Anthill Farms?). Sometimes it's F.X. Pichler Riesling Smaragd (alcohol warning Walt). And once in a while it's Turley Petite Sirah just to prove your point. But if it's that Turley the rest is a great match with a grilled steak (something I also happen to like, despite what my doctor says).

David,
Sorry this is a real problem. Wine is not alcohol, it is a food. You need to seek help.
Walt

[David M. Bueker]

I need help getting through the cellar is what I need.

[James Roscoe]

David, nice rant!

Walt, somehow I suspect you and David would end up on the same side.

[David M. Bueker]

I am not so sure I am on any side. There is a middle way of sorts where wines of all types are openly considered. Certainly some (e.g. Sauvignon Blanc, Scholium and Coturri for me) are put aside after trying as they do not fit what the drinker is looking for, but that is done after trying rather than based on some pre-set criteria.

Of course Walt has been at this for a while, so I am sure he's tried wines in a broader range than he now prefers to drink, but when determining sides (especially in a political context) there seems to be little though or consideration, but rather knee-jerk reaction to labels.

Of course Walt has been at this for a while, so I am sure he's tried wines in a broader range than he now prefers to drink, but when determining sides (especially in a political context) there seems to be little though or consideration, but rather knee-jerk reaction to labels.

David,
I definitely do not make knee jerk reactions to labels with the exception of labels that put funny animals on them. I will admit to not drinking 2-3 grape varieties. Unless the wine is well known by me I look at the importer, % alcohol and the grape blend. I have drank about everything but 20 years ago this worked. At that time wine making seemed to diverge. Good things like cleanliness and temp control happened. Bad things like overripe picking, lots of oak and advanced yeast strands (allowing higher alcohol) appeared. 50% of the wines went one way and 50% accepted the good things and then remained true to more conventional wine making. My opinions go back to an experience we had in Tuscany. Stayed there for 7 days and never did I see wine drank without food and never did I see food eaten without wine. My wife and I drink wine with dinner or on the patio with appetizers. The wines I drink on the "right" side go well with food (obviously you match the food to the wine). The wines on the other side cannot be drank with food, IMHO. They are many times just big alcoholic drinks that do not match food. My only exception is big grilled meat dishes and that is how I get rid of the 15% stuff still in my cellar. Food rules, but wait, wine is a food so I gues wine also rules. Vote for the "right" side and we will correct the problems of past years.
Walt

50% of the wines went one way and 50% accepted the good things and then remained true to more conventional wine making.

Where are you getting these numbers?

My opinions go back to an experience we had in Tuscany. Stayed there for 7 days and never did I see wine drank without food and never did I see food eaten without wine.

Out of curiosity, did the research for these conclusions occur mainly in restaurants or during meals?

50% of the wines went one way and 50% accepted the good things and then remained true to more conventional wine making.

Where are you getting these numbers?

My opinions go back to an experience we had in Tuscany. Stayed there for 7 days and never did I see wine drank without food and never did I see food eaten without wine.

Out of curiosity, did the research for these conclusions occur mainly in restaurants or during meals?

Rahsan,
And here I thought you would be on the "right" side. The numbers are not from a study, just a comment relating to what many wine makers are doing. Take a look at Bordeaux. Many are made with riper fruit, designed for early drinking and on the average higher alcohol. There are also those that did not change, may not be a great drink early, but as in the past will last 20++ years. I firmly believe, and have some experience to validate this, that the "bigger" bordeaux wines will not age like the ones in the past. I have 40 year old Bordeaux in my cellar from lesser properties that are drinking well. I doubt that can be repeated. Think the Loire. Do you think Huet changed? Don't you think some properties are bowing to the goopy alcohol gods? How about ESJ wines vs the majority of CA. Come on Rahsan!!

My experience in Tuscany was both in restaurants (everyone drank wine) and at the agritourisimo where we ate once per day. The owner also owned a wine store and made the comment I made relating to wine consumption and food. Forgeting some Super Tuscans, you have to admit the Sangiovese may be the prime example of wines that require food. I find it very hard to drink a Chianti without food due to the acidity.

Walt

The numbers are not from a study, just a comment relating to what many wine makers are doing.

I don't think anyone would dispute the fact that some winemakers are going for riper fruit, higher alcohol, more approachable early, etc. I was just wondering why you felt the need to assign specific percentages to the respective 'camps'. I am sure the data exist in order to be more precise about the size of these different camps but without such data it just seemed like you were engaged in false precision. I realize you were not being very serious about the numbers, but hey, it's a wine board so I figured I would spark some discussion. (And because false precision is one of my personal and professional irritants).

My experience in Tuscany was both in restaurants (everyone drank wine) and at the agritourisimo where we ate once per day. The owner also owned a wine store and made the comment I made relating to wine consumption and food.

I am well aware of the conventional wisdom that people in Italy and France think of wine as an accompaniment to food whereas Americans think of wine as a cocktail. And there is some truth to the story. But I think that conventional wisdom was probably more valid in the 1970s than today, as eating and drinking habits have changed on both sides of the Atlantic. And given your brief stay, how would you even know if people in Italy were drinking wine by itself, since you weren't in the locations/events where that is likely to take place.

[David M. Bueker]

Walt,

First of all thank you for starting what it turning into a great discussion/debate/exchange.

I wonder how a drink like Champagne fits into your view? It is great with food, but the majority of it is consumed as an aperitif/cocktail/what have you.

On the wine and food issue, for about 3 years I traveled extensively in France and Italy for business, and there was some wine consumption without a meal. It wasn't the majority but it certaily happened. In fact one evening I visited the home of one of the folks who worked at our facility near Toulouse, and when I arrived he and his wife were sipping on a glass of wine. They gave me one & we talked and sipped for a while. There was no meal, not even a snack. I think that's unusual, but it does happen.

Walt,

First of all thank you for starting what it turning into a great discussion/debate/exchange.

I wonder how a drink like Champagne fits into your view? It is great with food, but the majority of it is consumed as an aperitif/cocktail/what have you.

On the wine and food issue, for about 3 years I traveled extensively in France and Italy for business, and there was some wine consumption without a meal. It wasn't the majority but it certaily happened. In fact one evening I visited the home of one of the folks who worked at our facility near Toulouse, and when I arrived he and his wife were sipping on a glass of wine. They gave me one & we talked and sipped for a while. There was no meal, not even a snack. I think that's unusual, but it does happen.

David,
My wife is a major fan of Champagne so that means we drink it. Personally I think NV Champagne is severely overpriced and prefer Prosecco, NV Gruet and vintage Champagne for something special. My recent favorite semi sparkler was Cerdon-Bugey. Not sure how this fits the topic because I have not seen that much of a change but admit to not being a serious Champagne drinker.

I certainly do not think that in Europe wine is never drank by itself but as a generalization it is looked at as food and mostly consumed with food. One of my pet peeves in the US is that restaurants look at wine as alcohol and charge 3-4 times the wholesale cost. Fortunately we can BYOB in St. Louis. Another memory of Florence is ordering Chianti at a restaurant and having seen the same bottle at a wine store in the afternoon for only $3 less. Wine is food!
Walt

Can one be a wine independent? Most wines that I drink are right siders, but I do enjoy a big, jammy 16.5 Aussie Shiraz lefty now and again. Do the wine equivalent of Tea Party members exist?

Can one be a wine independent? Most wines that I drink are right siders, but I do enjoy a big, jammy 16.5 Aussie Shiraz lefty now and again. Do the wine equivalent of Tea Party members exist?

Sam,
Reading the words "big, jammy 16.5 Aussie Shiraz" is almost hard to do. I resolve this issue by not calling it normal wine but relating it to Port.

In regards to the tea party; they have not decided which wines they represent, sorta all over the place. They do want to eliminate all wine taxes which I have no problem with.

Walt

Walt, Hello....

First things first, and I would like to correct what I believe to be a misconception. As a man who lived half of his life in Europe (primarily in Paris and Geneva) and has earned his keep as a wine critic, I can say with fair certainty that wine is not perceived as food. Wine is perceived as a beverage. Indeed as an alcoholic beverage that is at its best with food, but not as food. With a smile, I would suggest that the only people who perceive wine as food are the clochards who sleep under the bridges crossing the Seine or Lac Leman.

As to right and left - an artificial dichotomy methinks, for as there are those who adore 1955 MG TC's there are those who equally adore the latest model Buicks. And then there are those who are fortunate enough to own one of each, to use the model of his/her choice when it most beckons. So be it with wine.

Agreed that 17% alcohol content Zinfandels are abominations but when we get to the range of plus or minus 16% there remain wines that although muscular and powerful use those muscles and power with great elegance.

Politically I would hope that most would place me on what I consider the intelligent but very left left. Winewise, I refuse to categorize myself.

Best
Rogov

Reading the words "big, jammy 16.5 Aussie Shiraz" is almost hard to do. I resolve this issue by not calling it normal wine but relating it to Port.

Wine is a big tent, Walt. I even know people who like Sancerre ***shiver***. My tastes definitely run toward old world style, food friendly wines. In fact, they make up 90%+ of what we drink, but I do like to take a walk on the wild side occasionally.

You mentioned travel in Tuscany. When my wife and I were in San Gimignano we quickly learned that drinking wine without any food is considered weird. What else could we do than simply give in eat those wonderful Italian appetizers.

Reading the words "big, jammy 16.5 Aussie Shiraz" is almost hard to do. I resolve this issue by not calling it normal wine but relating it to Port.

Wine is a big tent, Walt. I even know people who like Sancerre ***shiver***. My tastes definitely run toward old world style, food friendly wines. In fact, they make up 90%+ of what we drink, but I do like to take a walk on the wild side occasionally.

You mentioned travel in Tuscany. When my wife and I were in San Gimignano we quickly learned that drinking wine without any food is considered weird. What else could we do than simply give in eat those wonderful Italian appetizers.

Sam,
Think we pretty much agree except I do enjoy Sancerre. Odd thing in San Gimignano. When we were there it happened to be the only day of the year that the local wineries were open and serving wine with lots of apps. We got to the town early but after hearing the news spent a wonderful afternoon tasting wines at all the local wineries, some large and some very small.

Walt, Hello....

First things first, and I would like to correct what I believe to be a misconception. As a man who lived half of his life in Europe (primarily in Paris and Geneva) and has earned his keep as a wine critic, I can say with fair certainty that wine is not perceived as food. Wine is perceived as a beverage. Indeed as an alcoholic beverage that is at its best with food, but not as food. With a smile, I would suggest that the only people who perceive wine as food are the clochards who sleep under the bridges crossing the Seine or Lac Leman.

We are saying the same thing. How about wine is not like alcohol, it is more like water with the meal. You can't have a good meal without it.
Walt

[David M. Bueker]

Sam & Walt,

You have touched upon something that is actually core to the issue. Italy has a tradition of lovely "snacks" prior to dinner. Spain of course has the same thing. We don't have that as a tradition in the USA, so a glass of wine prior to dinner will necessarily either not be accompanied by food or by bar chips or some such.

Perhaps it is more of a food tradition issue than a wine tradition issue.

I think that you are correct, David. The snack foods in those countries are excellent and they take the synergetic relationship with the wine quite seriously. On one occasion in Italy the bartender gave us a wine other than what we ordered because "It no be's good with fratelli", and he mimed the act of spitting as he explained. At first I was kind of irritated, but then I realized that I should trust the subject matter expert. If you asked what wine would pair well with the fratelli in many U.S. restaurants you would get a blank stare.

OK, with all the response to what is on the "right" side of wine I came home and sampled the remaining bottles of three different wines. Besides, my better half in in NYC and I had nothing else to do. You have to have food with wine so started with a little mushroom pate and completed the dinner with fresh green beans from the garden and an all vegetarian dinner. Not normal but with my wife is out of town I had to eat what was available in the fridge. Didn't worry about a perfect food to wine match but actually it wasn't all that bad.

First wine:'08 Dom de Lancyre Rousanne: This was 13.5% but I am a sucker for unoaked wines from the So of France. I love this wine, it is big, full bodied and a real mouth full. No oak and have gone through a case of this over the summer. Call it muscular white but a moderately "right" wine.

Second wine:'07 Cuvee des Galets: This is a 14.5% blend of grenache, syrah, carignan and Cinsault imported by Hand Picked Selections. This is a huge red wine, requires flavored foods and was bought at a tasting with the owner of HPS. This wine was true to the grapes, very little oak, very active on the palate but may definitely on the edge of the "right" side of wine. Probably would not buy more but you have to get close to the other side to appreciate the "right" side.

Third wine:'08 Vinterra NZ PN: This is a 12.5% Pinot imported by Kysela that started the whole issue. On the second night it was as enjoyable as the first night. Very tight, restrained fruit, no oak and just begs for food. This may be my find of the last 6 months and went by my local wine store to purchase more bottles this afternoon. Call it definitely on the "right" side.

OK, I did not have a 15 % cab or a 16% Zin or a 17% Shiraz but I samped enough to know this is where my wine world resides. Invite me to a BBQ dinner, serve a nice, big domestic red and I will be your friend for life. Short of that I am a 13% old world wine drinker residing on the "right" side.
Walt

Can one be a wine independent? Most wines that I drink are right siders, but I do enjoy a big, jammy 16.5 Aussie Shiraz lefty now and again. Do the wine equivalent of Tea Party members exist?

Yes. The wine equivalent of Tea Party members enjoy MD 20/20 and Night Train.

-Paul W.