St. Joseph vs. Crozes-Hermitage

Back when I was first drawn (is that the proper word? I feel as though I was mesmerized by Dracula) into the world of wine, I assumed St. Joseph was the higher ranking AOC because Alain Graillot priced his St. Joseph higher than the regular Crozes cuvee.

In your personal opinion, as well as common wisdom, is that the proper assessment?

I don't know how you would rank them. They're both pretty large (CH is approx 1200 hectares and St Joseph is approx 900 hectares - compared to approx 2400 for the whole Northern Rhone) so there is a tremendous amount of variability.

I remember Claude Kolm once said that in his opinion the best St Joseph is better than all but the very best of Crozes. But it's still a very small difference and both regions are so 'large' that it doesn't make much sense to talk about one being definitely superior to the other. Rather, one would want to talk about the sub-regions, Tournon, Mauves, etc.

I don't know how you would rank them. They're both pretty large (CH is approx 1200 hectares and St Joseph is approx 900 hectares - compared to approx 2400 for the whole Northern Rhone) so there is a tremendous amount of variability.

I remember Claude Kolm once said that in his opinion the best St Joseph is better than all but the very best of Crozes. But it's still a very small difference and both regions are so 'large' that it doesn't make much sense to talk about one being definitely superior to the other. Rather, one would want to talk about the sub-regions, Tournon, Mauves, etc.

Not just Claude, either. The Pope of Monkton expressed a similar thought in his book on the Rhone. St. Joseph probably has more high quality terroir than does Crozes, though that distinction has grown less clear since St. J.'s boundaries expanded to include bottomland. In the case of Crozes, there's a world of difference between the plots on the slopes vs. those that lie on the plateau above; in St. J. it's the hills vs. the alluvial plain below. As always, the byword is location, location, location.

One way to approach the question is to look for quality producers in both regions. In Crozes, I look for Graillot and Belle (less exciting but still good). I missed out on the legendary Gilles-Robin "Cuvée FLJim," so I won't put them into the category. In St. J., there's GONON (capitaliz'n reflecting level of excitement), Faury, Faurie and now Graillot, too, so St. J. appears to win on points.

Mark Lipton

I would agree with Rahsaan and Mark that there's no clear "superior", and the range in both vary widely. That said, if I was faced with an unfamiliar wine list with producers I don't know, I'd probably go with a St Jo before a Crozes.
To Mark's list of producers, I'll add that in the old days the Jaboulet Thalabert could be kickass, probably better than any other Crozes (or St Joseph) I've ever tasted. But the couple of examples I've had from last 10-15 years were less impressive.

To Mark's list of producers, I'll add that in the old days the Jaboulet Thalabert could be kickass, probably better than any other Crozes (or St Joseph) I've ever tasted. But the couple of examples I've had from last 10-15 years were less impressive.

Drank the last (Sob, sob) of my 1995 Thalaberts a few weeks ago ... top notch.

That said, if I was faced with an unfamiliar wine list with producers I don't know, I'd probably go with a St Jo before a Crozes.

Personally, if shooting blind, I wouldn't go with either based solely on the village name. Playing the odds as I do I would definitely need info from sommelier/clerk, or I would choose something else.

To Mark's list of producers, I'll add that in the old days the Jaboulet Thalabert could be kickass, probably better than any other Crozes (or St Joseph) I've ever tasted..

Thalabert was the exact wine that Claude mentioned as having the best Crozes terroir, and which stood up to the best of St. Joseph.

Thanks. Interesting answers to read.

So who is making wine from the Thalabert vineyard? Is it still Jaboulet? I too have always enjoyed the Gilles Robin CH, but it doesn't seem to be around much anymore.

[David M. Bueker]

Jaboulet still does the Thalabert cuvee, though it has been mediocre for a while (last really good one I had was the 1998 - it's still quite tasty, as is the '95 per 'Winger's comment). One looks for an upswing under the new management, hoping against hope that the swing won't be with a large oak stave.

Chave's St. Joseph is quite delicious as well, and even the Chave Offerus St. Joseph negotiant wine is very nice stuff that can do well in a pinch.

Chave's St. Joseph is quite delicious as well, and even the Chave Offerus St. Joseph negotiant wine is very nice stuff that can do well in a pinch.

Yes, Chave's Estate St. J. can be fantastic. I've had mixed results with the Offerus, but they've likely improved their sources since the early years. Now that the Hermitage is out of reach for me financially, the St. J. is how I console myself.

Mark Lipton

Chave's St. Joseph is quite delicious as well, and even the Chave Offerus St. Joseph negotiant wine is very nice stuff that can do well in a pinch.

Yes, Chave's Estate St. J. can be fantastic. I've had mixed results with the Offerus, but they've likely improved their sources since the early years. Now that the Hermitage is out of reach for me financially, the St. J. is how I console myself.

Mark Lipton

Just ask for a big raise, dude! Or apply for one of those juicy grants the Repubs like to go gemischter over.