Smoke or smoke re 2008 Cal wines?

I just purchased some 2008 Beringer Private Reserve Chard but haven’t picked it up yet. I am a tiny bit concerned that I it might taste too much like smoke. Robert Parker Jr said that that particular chard, which he rated at 94 points, had a soft smoky element. I read that you could actually taste in Cal wines the smoke from all the brush and forest fires in 2008. Last night I drank a 2008 Rodney Strong chard and I really thought I could taste an ashtray on the finish. How do elements like smoke and ash get through the vinification process largely untouched in flavor? Is this possibly a mind trick? If not, I will be even more receptive to supposed characteristic aspects of unique terroirs.

[David M. Bueker]

The Beringer PR Chard is frequently smoky since they use rather heavily toasted barrels. The 2008 fires likely have zero to do with it.

I would ask Mr. Lipton to explain the vagaries of how smoke/ash flavors make their way into wine from fires, but will say for myself that I have noticed smoke taint in a 2008 Anderson Valley Pinot Noir that I tried a while back (though I liked the wine), but not in a 2008 Sonoma Pinot Noir from the same producer, so it's not ubiquitous.

Hi Covert,
The chemical compound possible responsible for the “smoky” character could be guaiacol. Like David said depending upon the degree of toast an oak barrel is subjected too could contribute a significant amount of this compound to the wine. Back in 2008 some winemakers were so concerned about the brush and forest fires that they did test their musts and juice for this chemical compound. Some found significant amounts of guaiacol already in their juices prior to fermentation and bulk aging in barrels.

Salute

I'm quite sure that Beringer had no fruit in their 08 chard that was fire affected. You might get some char flavor from the oak they use. It's a big style that many people love, others don't.

If you're looking for smoke effect (the non-barrel/non-guaiacal kind that is), Napa didn't have nearly as much problem with the smoke of 2008 as Mendocino and Lake County did, and to a certain extent, Sonoma. Wind and weather patterns, and terrain, and all that.

Though some wines will show the smoke, they're limited primarily to those wineries who either could not or did not choose to run the wine through filtration prior to bottling.

I had a chance to taste some wines pre-filtration and post filtration, and the current filtration devices---in the samples I had---were set to eliminate the problem, and did a fine job of it too.

What Lou and Victor said about the Beringer is spot on, btw. It's a stylistic choice and manipulative technique they strive for.

Actually, though, the more current Beringer Reserve Chards are a touch more elegant and less overtly manipulated to show the strong oak character. But if you like that, you can go over to the Sbragia Family Estate wines, since Ed Sbragia was the winemaker who made the Beringer style popular in the first place. Ed, an excellent winemaker and great guy, but one whose taste does not largely coincide with mine, once replied when he was asked why he made the chards that way, "because it's good fruit and it can take it!"

Hirsch had at least one 2008 wine that was definitely smoke-tainted from the wildfires around Sonoma. David Hirsch openly admitted as much at a tasting in Charlotte. I also felt I tasted smoke in one or two Solena wines. I just spent quite a bit of money ordering some 2008 single-vineyard Pinot Noirs (and one Chardonnay) from Williams Selyem. I did ask by e-mail if any of their 2008 wines were smoke-tainted but haven't had a reply from them.

CORRECTION: I relooked at my notes and it wasn't the Solena wines that were smoky--it was two 2008 Pinot Noirs from Luc Morlet and they were asking $90 and $113 for them! You've got to be kidding! The Hirsch wine was the 2008 Bohan Dillon. In the past Owen Roe had a vintage of Ex Umbris Syrah affected by smoke from fires and customers liked the smoky taste so they have tried to replicate it in later vintages. Too much smoke though is a turnoff.

The chemical compound possible responsible for the “smoky” character could be guaiacol. Like David said depending upon the degree of toast an oak barrel is subjected too could contribute a significant amount of this compound to the wine. Back in 2008 some winemakers were so concerned about the brush and forest fires that they did test their musts and juice for this chemical compound. Some found significant amounts of guaiacol already in their juices prior to fermentation and bulk aging in barrels.

Thank you,...is your name Victor?

I appreciate that bit of knowledge. So, I guess what folks are saying is that the smoky taste in the Berringer is from oak, but you can get a taste from the fires. I wonder if anybody can describe what that taint tastes like or smells like.

Covert

[David M. Bueker]

Covert,

Based on a bottle of 2008 Anthill Farms Anderson Valley Pinot Noir I had a while back, the smoke taint manifested iteself as a distinct note of campfire with a touch of bacon. It really made the Pinot taste a bit like Cote Rotie Syrah.

Not to be a smart aleck but it tastes like smoke.

Not to be a smart aleck but it tastes like smoke.

that's what I thought, but it seemed people were saying if I tasted smoke it was from the oak. But maybe they were saying the wine I was talking about tasted like smoke because of the oak and other wines I wasn't talking about tasted like smoke because of some combination of smoke and oak. But I mentioned Rodney Strong tasting like an ashtray, but didn't get feedback on that comment.

Then there was my original question of how smoke could go through he vinification process unaltered.

[David M. Bueker]

Covert,

I have not tasted any 2008 Rodney Strong, so I cannot comment specifically on the wine you are referring to. What was the appelation? Sonoma? Alexander Valley?

As for the Beringer, it is often heavily marked by toasty/smoky oak, so a smoky version might not seem all that different. That being said, Hoke is correct that Napa did not really have big smoke issues.

As far as the condition passing through the winemaking process...there are some ways to filter/treat for the condition, and there are differing reports on effeciveness.

Hi Covert,
You (and others) might find the following article interesting it’s from Wine Business.com, Feb 15,2010 written by Roger Lansing:

http://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=get ... taId=72575

Salute
Victor

[Jenise]

Covert, CalChards you've mentioned loving in the past--Toasted Head, Souverain come to mind--are big with heavily toasted oak. If the Beringer suffers slightly from it, I'm thinking it wouldn't bother you.

"I just spent quite a bit of money ordering some 2008 single-vineyard Pinot Noirs (and one Chardonnay) from Williams Selyem. I did ask by e-mail if any of their 2008 wines were smoke-tainted but haven't had a reply from them." (from my earlier post)

Today I received a reply from the Williams Selyem Director of Customer Relations assuring me that the wines they sold under their label are free of smoke taint. Some lots from younger vines that did have some smoke taint were sold on the bulk wine market. The winery sold off what would have been the equivalent of about one million dollars of wine if bottled as usual.

[Jenise]

Interesting factoid, JC!

Btw, I once had a taste of Carmenet (winery no longer in operation) zinfandel from a plot that was partially burned by one of those wildfires, so smoke taint was unavoidable. It was actually an attractive component and the winery thought so too, so they bottled it as something like Firecracker Zin and turned what was otherwise a negative into a selling point with a good story to boot.

Interesting factoid, JC!

Btw, I once had a taste of Carmenet (winery no longer in operation) zinfandel from a plot that was partially burned by one of those wildfires, so smoke taint was unavoidable. It was actually an attractive component and the winery thought so too, so they bottled it as something like Firecracker Zin and turned what was otherwise a negative into a selling point with a good story to boot.

That was a Dynamite Zin!

[Jenise]

That was a Dynamite Zin!

That's the name, thank you!

There was also a Firecracker Zin, Jenise, by another company---but I forget who right now.

Lots of good conversation around this topic to help clarify the issues and concerns. I work for Rodney Strong and am involved in industry trade assocations so have an inside perspective on a lot of the conversations going on here. I look forward to getting into some of the conversations and when requested will gladly give an unbiased insiders perspective. Not much needs to said about the smoke issues other than to reiterate the 2008 vintage concerns are isolated to certain growing regions and most were not affected. I know our vineyards in Sonoma County were fine and the resulting wines are smoke free. There was reference to a Rodney Strong chardonnay tasting like an ashtray. I have never heard a wine referred to that way, but smells and flavors are subjective and unique to us an individuals. I suspect this to be a secondary cork taint issue (which would be a great topic to explore ). Most fairly knowledgeable wine drinkers know the obvious TCA issues (musty, mouldy), but the secondary ones smell and taste differently and spoil the enjoyment of the wine just the same. Three less obvious flaws in corks are "geosmin" (earthy, muddy aroma) and "guaiacol" (smoky or medicinal) and octen-3-one (distinct tinned mushrooms). I suspect the above referenced wine had a "guaiacol" tainted cork and the interpretted impression was that of an ashtray. It's certainly not what the wine is supposed to smell/taste like. There are several internet sites where you can search other tasting notes on specific wines to compare. If your bad experience appears to be nique then it's likely there is a suspect cork or the wines was stored improperly and the wine should warrant another try.

[David M. Bueker]

Interesting info Dan. Thanks.

One other situation where I have noticed ashtray elements is in some of the (potentially) ladybug tainted '04s from France. There have been several Burgundies, Beaujolais and a few other types of wines where I have caught that same ashtray element.

Lots of good conversation around this topic to help clarify the issues and concerns. I work for Rodney Strong and am involved in industry trade assocations so have an inside perspective on a lot of the conversations going on here. I look forward to getting into some of the conversations and when requested will gladly give an unbiased insiders perspective. Not much needs to said about the smoke issues other than to reiterate the 2008 vintage concerns are isolated to certain growing regions and most were not affected. I know our vineyards in Sonoma County were fine and the resulting wines are smoke free. There was reference to a Rodney Strong chardonnay tasting like an ashtray. I have never heard a wine referred to that way, but smells and flavors are subjective and unique to us an individuals. I suspect this to be a secondary cork taint issue (which would be a great topic to explore ). Most fairly knowledgeable wine drinkers know the obvious TCA issues (musty, mouldy), but the secondary ones smell and taste differently and spoil the enjoyment of the wine just the same. Three less obvious flaws in corks are "geosmin" (earthy, muddy aroma) and "guaiacol" (smoky or medicinal) and octen-3-one (distinct tinned mushrooms). I suspect the above referenced wine had a "guaiacol" tainted cork and the interpretted impression was that of an ashtray. It's certainly not what the wine is supposed to smell/taste like. There are several internet sites where you can search other tasting notes on specific wines to compare. If your bad experience appears to be nique then it's likely there is a suspect cork or the wines was stored improperly and the wine should warrant another try.

Dan, I am the one who said he detected an ashtray finish in one Rodney Strong chard bottle. I drink a lot of Rodney Strong chard at various price points, from I guess maybe three different vineyards, and liked all that I have had, finding the taste uniquely more interesting than many other cal chards. I found that aspect I mentioned in only one instance a couple of weekends ago. In retrospect, I am sorry that I named that 2008 example publically before drinking more than one. The ashtray taste I mentioned definitely wasn't a function of TCA, which I am very familiar with, but it could have been something else unique to one bottle, or even something in the room that affected the taste of wine. It is summer, so it probably wasn't my wood stove, but in all fairness to Rodney Strong, I was sitting next to my wood stove (at our mountain camp) and my wife and I were trying to detect smoke after reading about the potential problems with some chards from the 2008 vintage. The power of suggestion could have been on overdrive. So I apologize for even mentioning a property so quickly. I will drink a couple of more bottles from that store batch, and look at the label (which I don't have at this location) to identify the vineyard area if I have anything more to say.

[Jenise]

There was also a Firecracker Zin, Jenise, by another company---but I forget who right now.

Sinsky?

[David M. Bueker]

S. Anderson made a "Firecracker Red" at one point.

I guess what he is trying to tell us is that vanillic acid, no matter if it comes from natural cork, oak barrels, or oak alternatives, in the presence of certain strains of bacteria, can be transformed into guaiacol. So it doesn’t really matter what treatment the oak product is exposed to (no toast; light, medium, or heavy toast), if vanillic acid is present with a certain strain of bacteria, guaiacol can be formed. I would think however that a “guaiacol-tainted” cork or barrel for that matter will have an “off-smell”.

BTW Dan welcome to WLDG

Salute