WTN: 1997 J. J. Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Spatlese

[David M. Bueker]

Ap#30-98 for those keeping score at home.

This drinks very well now, though there is still the touch of sulfur/leesy stinkiness here and there. The fruit is still quite forward, with some element of petrol coming through. Strong minerality and good density to the flavors suggest further age will do this wine no harm at all, but it's quite approachable now, and since so much Prum is not that way, it's time to drink this one.

I have discovered the J. J. Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Spatlese I have that I thought I was an '07 is an '03, I appeal to your wisdom and ask do you think I should uncork that bad boy now? I don't think I'll be coming across any '97 anytime soon. Oops just popped out to the interweb and sure enough I can get it.....for a price.

I have had a couple of the 97's and the most recent one two years ago was just about white wine of the year. Glorious, and seemed less sulphured than your bottle David, or other bottles I've tried.

Kelly, J J Prum see 03 as one of their best ever vintages. I've avoided them due to the reputation of the vintage as very hot, forward and relatively low acid. I'm happy to be surprised though,

[David M. Bueker]

'03 Prums are glorious at the auslese level. I have not tried a spatlese in a long time, so I can't offer much advice, other than I would not open it yet on general principle.

Had a fantastic '96 Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Spatlese the other night courtesy of Ian Fitzsimmons. Delicious stuff that had more poise and grace than the '97, in addition to also having more sheer power.

We just drank an '04 Prum W.S. Spat last week. Not a hint of sulfur after about 15 minutes in a decanter. As with all Prums it was nicely balanced with fruit to the forefront and a mineral backbone. Very tasty right now, but I don't know that age will do much for it. Paired nicely with a grilled Asian chicken.

David,

I'd love to benefit from your experience here. Your initial post seems to suggest that Prums have a limited life, potentially sub 15 years? So Prums are good for the first few years (1-3) until they shut down (7-10) and then come back to live for only a limited lift (10-15 years?). Is this a good read? Some variation for Kabinett, Spatlese, Auslese and for different vintages? Seems from other posts that you might suggest Loosen's are for near term consumptions as well.

What Riesling producers are in your opinion built for the long haul? I've been a regular buyer of Prum, Donnhoff, Diel, Loosen, Vollenweider, Kerpen, Strub, Saint Urbans-hof, and a few others. As I have enough for drinking for the next few years, I'd like to buy some that have a bit more longevity built into it.

Many thanks in advance!

Your initial post seems to suggest that Prums have a limited life, potentially sub 15 years?

I think you're reading his post wrong. He was saying that since so much Prum is NOT approachable (i.e. needs decades of age), the fact that this wine is approachable means that it is a prime candidate for drinking, even if it too will age well.

What Riesling producers are in your opinion built for the long haul? I've been a regular buyer of Prum, Donnhoff, Diel, Loosen, Vollenweider, Kerpen, Strub, Saint Urbans-hof, and a few others. As I have enough for drinking for the next few years, I'd like to buy some that have a bit more longevity built into it.

I'm no expert on all the producers but of those you mention, Prum stands out as definitely being toward the extreme end of the aging curve. But it all depends what you mean by 'long haul' and thankfully this is not white Burgundy so they all have some degree of longevity built in and you don't have to worry about the wines falling apart. The only downside is that you just may not like their evolved state as much.

[David M. Bueker]

Rahsaan has the interpretation correct. Prum wines can go a long, long time, even the kabinetts. I had a '97 Prum WS Kabinett a month ago that was just beginning to enter maturity, and looked to have another 15-20 years of good drinking ahead of it. A '97!

As for producers where there is more potential longevity, I have a few things to say on that subject:

1. Most any top producer will make wines that reward 10-15+ years of aging, and so are not really "near term" wines. As a general rule (and generalizations are almost nowhere more dangerous than in positing the longevity of a certain wine) 10 years gets you into a window of early maturity for kabinett and spatlese with the barest hint at maturity in auslese. The wines then develop/hold maturity for a long time after that. There are so many top producers these days that I won't list them all, but Prum & Egon Muller head that list. Selbach-Oster is a surprise to most folks when I mention their wines for long aging, but I have had 20 year old QbA from them on more than 1 occasion that was delicious. Rheinhold Haart, fritz Haag, Zilliken, etc all make very ageworthy wines.

2. There are some producers where the wines taste best young. I have experimented with aging Strub, Gysler, Kerpen, and several others where the wines were not as good after eight or ten years than they were in their precocious youth.

3. Donnhoff is a curious case in point, as the youthful flavors of the wines are so alluring that the aged character that they develop does not please everyone. I happen to love it, and thus feel that the wines age exceptionally well (if not as long as Prum/Muller), but the stylistic line from youth to maturity is not as direct as it is with some other wines. I heartily recommend aging Donnhoff, but only in quantity if you have tasted well stored examples at someone else's expense first.

4. German Riesling is a wine of exceptional potential and durability, but I am not really sure that a wine's ability to age for 25 years is really a virtue. I think it's just more of a characteristic, as so many things change about us in 25 years that laying down a bottle in expectation of super enjoyment is a risky proposition just based on us, leaving aside the myriad variables that go into an individual bottle of wine's performance on a given night 25 years hence.

There are so many top producers these days that I won't list them all, but Prum & Egon Muller head that list. Selbach-Oster is a surprise to most folks when I mention their wines for long aging, but I have had 20 year old QbA from them on more than 1 occasion that was delicious. Rheinhold Haart, fritz Haag, Zilliken, etc all make very ageworthy wines.

I know you said there were too many top producers to list them all, but if we're talking ageworthy wines I just thought that Maximin Grunhauser's name should be mentioned!

Ah,

Sorry for the misread there! Many many thanks for the information provided and I completely understand the notion of not listing wines to last too long. I've learned a lot reading the posts from here and from a few other websites (I only go to friendly ones right JC and Carl ??) and intend to stay in that learning mode for quite some time. Many thanks again for your insights.

Mike

...I have a few things to say on that subject...

David, even if this post was the only one you'd ever written in your life, it would have earned you that Riesling Guru moniker!

I haven't tasted any mature Donnhoffs yet. In what way are they different from other mature German Rieslings?

4. German Riesling is a wine of exceptional potential and durability, but I am not really sure that a wine's ability to age for 25 years is really a virtue. I think it's just more of a characteristic, as so many things change about us in 25 years that laying down a bottle in expectation of super enjoyment is a risky proposition just based on us, leaving aside the myriad variables that go into an individual bottle of wine's performance on a given night 25 years hence.

I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone put this into words before, but I think David is spot on and raises a very valid point.

ex. I love Huet's Vouvrays and buy & cellar them every year, but the fact that they need so long to really reach their peak of maturity is a negative in my book, even if they are so exceptional when they get there. I suspect most of my bottles will be gone long before their 25th birthday.

Yes, I had a lot of respect for David's knowledge of Riesling until he joined several other forumites in failing to appreciate the charms of "Dr. L", straight up. Anybody can like good Riesling. It takes strength of character to appreciate swill.

Yes, David is the go-to guy for all things Riesling.

I am not really sure that a wine's ability to age for 25 years is really a virtue. I think it's just more of a characteristic, as so many things change about us in 25 years that laying down a bottle in expectation of super enjoyment is a risky proposition just based on us, leaving aside the myriad variables that go into an individual bottle of wine's performance on a given night 25 years hence.

This is as insightful as it gets--something well worth considering when thinking about what we want out of a wine . . .

Can I add a small insight in support - We recently saw a 1976 Willi Schaefer Auslese. It was remarkeable for having held up for 34 years. Was it better than the same 09 Auslese? To be honest, no. Just different. it hadn't improved, just changed.

Aged riesling is for people who like aged riesling.

I'm also interested in the Donnhoff insight, I haven't had one beyond 10 years old.

cheers

Andrew

[David M. Bueker]

Can I add a small insight in support - We recently saw a 1976 Willi Schaefer Auslese. It was remarkeable for having held up for 34 years. Was it better than the same 09 Auslese? To be honest, no. Just different. it hadn't improved, just changed.

Aged riesling is for people who like aged riesling.

I'm also interested in the Donnhoff insight, I haven't had one beyond 10 years old.

Andrew, your comment on the Schaefer hits the nail on the head. Fully mature German Riesling and young German Riesling are really two different wines. I would say the same for Donnhoff with age, as that crystaline purity that I (and others) prize in youth turns into something much more smoky/earthy with age (than many other Rieslings, especially Mosels), and to my taste transcends the Riesling variety. Granted I have not had the chance to taste truly old versions of Donnhoff's Kirschheck or Dellchen yet, so I may just be speaking of particularities of the Hermannshohle and Brucke vineyards, but at least at the spatlese level I have seen this transformation any number of times. Of course there will always be more data points, as I have enough Donnhoff to do these aging experiments for many years to come.