Medieval wine term "vinum salmetum" - what's it mean?

[Robin Garr]

Got this intriguing question online from a fellow researching old documents, but it stumped both me and Da Google. Any of you experts out there have a clue?

Can you tell me what "vinum salmetum" is (or was)? I've found the phrase in a Mediaeval text, but I do not know how to translate it.

If Otto does not know the answer I bet he could find out. If he does not pick up on this thread I suggest you PM him.

If we were playing Dictionary/Balderdash I'd go with " the principle that either red wine or white wine can go with salmon." You can see why I never win.

“Safe wine” or “healthy wine”?

Salute

If this really is Latin, "vinum" clearly means "wines" (plural).

"salmetum" would be an adjective, or possibly meaning "from or pertaining to Salmetus" (wherever or whatever that might be).

Google did find the use of "saluetum" in another context that didn't seem to apply to your phrase. It makes me wonder whether this is really a Latin phrase, or perhaps a dialect or a related Medieval language.

Or maybe it's vulgar Latin and thus beneath the notice of online Latin translators I've found, which universally don't recognize "salmetum".

-Paul W.

well, to be helpful wouldn't we need the context? what was being discussed? what is the sentence in which it occurrs?

[Robin Garr]

If this really is Latin, "vinum" clearly means "wines" (plural).

Not so clear, Paul. It could be second or fourth declension accusative case for the noun vinus.

Sorry my correspondent didn't provide more context, but it's in a 13th century medieval text that he's translating.

Robin, you might want to refer your correspondent to Sean Thackrey, who maintains a website of ancient documents on wine making and grape growing at http://www.wine-maker.net/

Sean has translated a number of these documents from French and Latin and perhaps other languages -- Greek seems to resonate in my poor memory -- I'm not sure how active he is now, but his site has some very interesting older texts.

Wikipedia describes the library: 'Thackrey's website holds what is titled "The Thackrey Library", which includes an extensive archive of early books and manuscripts relating to the subject of winemaking and the enjoyment of wine.[5][11] Having collected ancient wine texts since 1996, the oldest document is a sixth century papyrus receipt for grapevines written in Greek.[12]"

In my wine loving days, I used to contact Thackrey at winefinder@wine-maker.net

A total guess on the phrase "vinum salmetum" -- it may mean vineyard. The form "palmetum" means a garden or orchard for palms, for example, in some older texts I've seen on journeys through Google Books.

Best, Bob

Playing lnguistic detective is always a pleasure. I would think a somewhat cannibalized Latin - vinum clearly being wine and salmetum an odd plural form of salmi which in turn is Psalms. Considering the Medieval roots of the text I would think this relates to a wine that is dedicated especially to that portion of the 14th and 15th century practice of reading selected Psalms and sipping of wine during the mass. Most distinctly a Catholic tradition but one tracing first to middle-European Jewish services, before that to Babylonian Judaism and before that to sacred poems at various pagan ceremonies.

Of course, not even Inspectors Maigret or Clousseau were correct all of the time so my detective work may be naught but speculation.

Best
Rogov

Robin, you might want to refer your correspondent to Sean Thackrey, who maintains a website of ancient documents on wine making and grape growing at http://www.wine-maker.net/

Sean has translated a number of these documents from French and Latin and perhaps other languages -- Greek seems to resonate in my poor memory -- I'm not sure how active he is now, but his site has some very interesting older texts.

Wikipedia describes the library: 'Thackrey's website holds what is titled "The Thackrey Library", which includes an extensive archive of early books and manuscripts relating to the subject of winemaking and the enjoyment of wine.[5][11] Having collected ancient wine texts since 1996, the oldest document is a sixth century papyrus receipt for grapevines written in Greek.[12]"

In my wine loving days, I used to contact Thackrey at winefinder@wine-maker.net

A total guess on the phrase "vinum salmetum" -- it may mean vineyard. The form "palmetum" means a garden or orchard for palms, for example, in some older texts I've seen on journeys through Google Books.

Best, Bob

Y'know, it's really good to see you back, Bob. Good stuff here.

I think a whole bunch of us have been missing the welcome presence of Mr. Ross.

Of course, not even Inspectors Maigret or Clousseau were correct all of the time so my detective work may be naught but speculation.

Which do you fancy describes your techniques, Rogov? Guess we'd have to hear you pronounce 'moth' to know for sure!

I like to think that I take more after Poirot myself.

Hi Bob! Good to hear from you! Hope all is well.

Salute

Thanks for all the good wishes. Things on the medical front are still hot and heavy, so my attendance in this august company is problematic -- but always great fun -- smashing glass, parsing ancient texts, lots of smilies.

Thanks all. Best, Bob

Of course, not even Inspectors Maigret or Clousseau were correct all of the time so my detective work may be naught but speculation.

Which do you fancy describes your techniques, Rogov? Guess we'd have to hear you pronounce 'moth' to know for sure!

I like to think that I take more after Poirot myself.

Bill, Hi...

As much as I adore Clousseau, be there no question that I opt for Inspector Maigret who loved his Calva, his marc de Champagne, his vin blanc (despite his doctor's prognostications), his coq au vin, his choucroute garni, the preserves his sister-in-law made and his many hours spent in bistros, bars and cafes while "staking out" a potential bad man. As I have written on several occasions - never has a flic dined as well as Maigret.

As to Poirot, a gentleman of the old school who also loved his food and his various digestifs and tissanes, a bit too much on the traditional culinary side for my taste.

Best
Rogov

Bob, I'm sorry these are no longer your wine loving days, but we are surely glad to see you! You always add a lot to the conversation.

I'm not a Latinist and my experiences with Indo-European languages is limited to the Iranian branch, so others will surely have better ideas. I was puzzled by this, however, because I did not manage to find a single word in even the largest Latin dictionaries in our University Library that would have the root "salm-". My guess would be a so called nisbe adjective: "wines from Salmetus." The problem here is, however, that the lists of Medieval Latin place names that I found in the library did not have a Salmetus. Can you ask for more context?

[Robin Garr]

Can you ask for more context?

Sure, Otto! I just posted to him.

By the way, here's a follow-up I got from him the other day. If you, Bob and others would like to pick at it, feel free:

It's a wine-based brine for preserving fish and other foods, I think.
Salmetum from salmentum from salsamentum (brine).

"salsamentum" has dozens of hits on Google Books -- some of the recipes contain wine. Ancient concoction with lots of uses, including laxatives -- at one time a small bottle was worth a hundred sheep. Sounds like the Asian fish based sauce.

Y'know, it's really good to see you back, Bob. Good stuff here.

Was that Bob? Or was that Memorex? Seriously Bob, I agree, it is nice to see you back here, even if it is just a Ghost appearance.

[Robin Garr]

Sounds like the Asian fish based sauce.

Or the ancient Roman garum, progenitor of anchovy paste?

Yes. The Google Books write about garum in some of the same passages. There's also an philological discussion about the forms of this word that I can't follow -- too much Latin for my rusty learning.

"The grammarians' notion that salmentum is contracted from salsamentum, as if through an intermediate salamentum, though upheld lately, is absurd. Seelman's examples of 's' dropping out (Aussprache p. 318) are quite different."

Your correspondent might well find some help in that discussion.

I think I may shed some light here: Salmetum should indeed be either an aphaeresis or a syncope of salsamentum. The word vinum could then be considered superfluous - meaning "liquid" - and the meaning of the whole phrase would be just "brine". But please give us the whole context!

Greetings from Sweden / Fredrik L (who once - albeit in the days of yore - used to teach Latin.)

The grammarians' notion that salmentum is contracted from salsamentum, as if through an intermediate salamentum, though upheld lately, is absurd.

Besides which, when you type salmentum into Google it does not say "Did you mean salsamentum?"

Are we sure we have a Latin word here? My naive use of Google points to Babylon and Iraq - but surely they woud not be using a Latin script...?