WTN: Rant about pairing Beaune and camembert plus 2 others.

Most of the wines last week, which was quite warm and suitable for alfresco meals, have already been the subject of recent TNs. The following three were new. I can’t resist a rant about the pairing of a fine red Burgundy with runny camembert.

Beaune 1er cru Blanches Fleurs 1997 - Domaine Jean Moreteaux et Fils. Our host is an intelligent and charming retired psychiatrist and this bottle was a present from a grateful patient. When he showed me the bottle “to drink with the cheese” after a barbecue, I had misgivings and these were more than justified when I saw the ripe camembert which had been heated to make it even more runny.
I took care to sniff the glass and drink a mouthful before taking any cheese and it showed a very pretty pinot nose with tangy cherry and on the palate medium/light body, well shaped, decent freshness and acidity with discreet fruit, fragrance and elegance.
As soon as I had eaten some camembert, the wine acquired a harsh edge which I couldn’t shake off even some minutes after my last mouthful of cheese; on its own 16/20; after the cheese 12/20.
Why, oh why, do so many people persist in thinking that ANY cheese is the ideal pairing for fine red wine?

Les Baux de Provence 2005 – Domaine Terres Blanches –Alc. 13.5% - made from organically grown Cabernet Sauvignon, Syrah, Grenache and Mourvèdre and aged for 18 months in large oak barrels (“foudres”). I have enjoyed mature bottles of late 80s/90 vintages from this estate. This one was quite complex with some rich red and dark fruit with a quite velvety touch at the front of the palate but towards the finish some still hard tannins kicked in. I found the overall effect somewhat disjointed but knowing the excellent results with ageing from Domaine Trévallon in the same beautiful Alpilles region as well as from Domaine Hauvette and my experience of mature bottles of this estate, I am confident that a few more years will bring it together; 14.5/20 with ?++ potential.

At Sardinian restaurant La Lagune eating with our feet almost in the Lac de Genval, we had with pizza a wine which I recall as a Monica di Cagliari but I took no notes. I will certainly order it again for its warm tangy and spicy robust personality which even pleased our guest who rarely likes wine.

Why, oh why, do so many people persist in thinking that ANY cheese is the ideal pairing for fine red wine?

Because it's a stereotype that's been hard-wired into our cultural and social mentality? I agree with you, if you're drinking a really lovely wine - red or white - you should probably just drink it on its own, or pair it with some simply-prepared protein that will enhance the flavours, rather than obscure and muddle them.

Dairy and wine just don't get along well, usually. Of course there's exceptions, but the only wine-cheese pairings I've truly enjoyed would be blue cheese with icewine or port, and then any other cheese with a cheap, rustic red (something that's only serving as a backdrop, not a centerpiece).

A local shop pairs bread and balsamic vinegar...with wine. No thanks. Just olive oil for me!

Dairy and wine just don't get along well, usually. Of course there's exceptions, but the only wine-cheese pairings I've truly enjoyed would be blue cheese with icewine or port, and then any other cheese with a cheap, rustic red (something that's only serving as a backdrop, not a centerpiece).

Melissa, another cheese pairing which can be marvellous is goat cheese with a mineral dry white wine. Fine dry red wines can make quite a fair pairing with some hard textured cheeses which are not too assertive; I remember the sommelier at Cordeillan-Bages pointing me towards Cantal Salers to finish a Picon-Longueville Baron 82; it worked well.

A few months ago La Revue du Vin de France ran a very good article on wine/cheese pairings. The general thrust was that each cheese needs a different wine although some are not suitable at all. They recommended just one carefully chosen cheese with one equally carefully chosen wine if a cheese/wine pairing was desired. My host did the one cheese thing but, unfortunately, runny Camembert and 13 year old Burgundy is about the worst wine/cheese combination which can be dreamt up. The Normans recommend one of their nicely acidic dry ciders.

Melissa, another cheese pairing which can be marvellous is goat cheese with a mineral dry white wine. Fine dry red wines can make quite a fair pairing with some hard textured cheeses which are not too assertive; I remember the sommelier at Cordeillan-Bages pointing me towards Cantal Salers to finish a Picon-Longueville Baron 82; it worked well.

A few months ago La Revue du Vin de France ran a very good article on wine/cheese pairings. The general thrust was that each cheese needs a different wine although some are not suitable at all. They recommended just one carefully chosen cheese with one equally carefully chosen wine if a cheese/wine pairing was desired. My host did the one cheese thing but, unfortunately, runny Camembert and 13 year old Burgundy is about the worst wine/cheese combination which can be dreamt up. The Normans recommend one of their nicely acidic dry ciders.

Can you give some suggestions for a dry mineral white? Maybe something from northern Italy? Or perhaps an austere German Riesling? It seems like all the whites I've had lately were too heavy on the tropical fruit, so I feel out of touch with that style of wine. (C'mon, it's summer )

I'd also like the link to that article, if you can rustle it up.

Can you give some suggestions for a dry mineral white?

Well since he's talking about goat cheese, the classic pairing is Loire sauvignon blanc. But other Loire white wines work well too.

How about a white from the Jura, Mel? Nice one downtown......Domaine Rolet $24.

A contrarian view.

Tim, you said:

Why, oh why, do so many people persist in thinking that ANY cheese is the ideal pairing for fine red wine?

Okay, I'm not defending "ANY cheese"---that's just sloppy/carelessness.

But if I change it to just Beaune/camembert, my answer to your question might be: Gee. Because THEY like it?

That you didn't like it was apparent. Did the host happen to like the comparison---or was said host just putting something out there they thought was supposed to be a good combination, didn't know any better, and hadn't tried it for themselves? Makes a big difference to me.

I'm one of those people who happens to like some red wines with cheeses---and not just the post-lactic aged cheeses. I'm also one of those persons who laughs heartily when some snit next to me opines that "red wine and eggs just DON'T go together *snif*", and I think back to Yaniger's fonduta and Nebbiolo, or the eggs with red wine on St. Vincent's Day in Mercurey.

Yes, "classic" combos are good guideliens...or at least frames of reference....but adhering to all the rules all the time makes wine a dull boy. And keeps you from having epiphanies.

Hey, I was just at the Wine Bloggers Conference in Walla Walla and a professed "food and wine pairing expert" was pontificating loudly (loudly works best when you're "bullet pointing" to your audience; you know what I mean). He said clearly "Red wines do not go with young cheeses!!!----then he immediately started listing all the exceptions to what he just said, one after another. Well, if "red wines do not go with young cheeses" then wtf are you spending time listing alternatives for what you just said??? When you have that many exceptions, the "rule" becomes rather ridiculous, dunnit?

But if I change it to just Beaune/camembert, my answer to your question might be: Gee. Because THEY like it?

That you didn't like it was apparent. Did the host happen to like the comparison---or was said host just putting something out there they thought was supposed to be a good combination, didn't know any better, and hadn't tried it for themselves? Makes a big difference to me.

Hoke, I go along with you there but it's difficult to answer for our friend's motivation. He's not a wine geek, just a typical Belgian professional class person who has been brought up on Bordeaux and Burgundy and also, I suspect, on the notion that red wine and ANY cheese is the perfect combination, which is quite common here. If he'd been a wine geek, I would certainly have tackled him about it. Perhaps I'm over sensitive about being accused of wine snobbery but, in company like this, I tend to keep quiet.

Another indication about his mind set is when, at our home, I served some goat cheeses and continued with the same mineral white wine which I had served with the fish, he did not want his glass refilled even though he had praised the wine initially.

Can you give some suggestions for a dry mineral white? Maybe something from northern Italy? Or perhaps an austere German Riesling? It seems like all the whites I've had lately were too heavy on the tropical fruit, so I feel out of touch with that style of wine. (C'mon, it's summer )

I'd also like the link to that article, if you can rustle it up.

Melissa, goat cheeses differ, of course. My favourites are from the Loire valley like Sainte-Maure, Pouligny St.Pierre, Crottin de Chavignol, Selles-sur-Cher and with these Loire Sauvignon blanc like Sancerre or Pouilly-Fumé, as Rahsaan says, can be wonderful and also Chenin based wines like Vouvray, even in demi-sec versions which are not too rich (avoid 2005 and 2009). Dry Riesling can work well and I have had surprisingly good results with Mosel Kabinett and Spätlese, provided it is not declassified Auslese. Don't, though,try the same combinations with, say, Banon de Provence, which is far more pungent.

I'll do a search tomorrow to see if this article is on their website but I suspect it was only in the print edition. I'll try to scan it for you but I've had bad legibility doing this in the past and the article is quite long.

Tim, I would be interested in the article too!

Thanks for the wine suggestions guys, and Tim - if you can't find the article online, that's fine. I don't want you to go through a bunch of trouble on my behalf! If your scanner is anything like the beast I have at the office, I wouldn't want to force you to use it unless it was a matter of life and death

Also, food and wine pairings are totally to be taken with a grain of salt. I, for one, am on a quest to find the "proper" pairing with Hawkins Cheezies - and I've enjoyed many a red wine with them. Sure, they don't do very nice things to your plate, but after a few bites or a few sips the taste of the other is basically gone, so who cares.

http://www.cheezies.com/index3.htm

Krug!!

While I generally lean towards whites with cheese and sparkling with something like a triple creme if you're talking red wine hard cheeses are generally the way to go. Aged Gouda for example. My new favorites as a great wine match is Landaff.

[Jenise]

Why, oh why, do so many people persist in thinking that ANY cheese is the ideal pairing for fine red wine?

Because it's a stereotype that's been hard-wired into our cultural and social mentality? I agree with you, if you're drinking a really lovely wine - red or white - you should probably just drink it on its own, or pair it with some simply-prepared protein that will enhance the flavours, rather than obscure and muddle them.

Dairy and wine just don't get along well, usually. Of course there's exceptions, but the only wine-cheese pairings I've truly enjoyed would be blue cheese with icewine or port, and then any other cheese with a cheap, rustic red (something that's only serving as a backdrop, not a centerpiece).

Actually, I love most white wines with most cheeses and stinky runny cheeses in particular. There are some bombs (in the bad sense) out there, sure, but I like the fruit and acidity of a young white contrasted with good/mature cheeses. By the same token some young red wines do show well with some cheeses, but in general it's not a good idea. And a mature red should be spared the humiliation.

At my house, there is almost always a *selection* of cheeses when we have people over to dinner.

I am not very anal about matching wine and cheese... I tend to prefer red wine with the cheese platter and it is the tradition to end a meal here with the best, oldest and most subtle red wine at that stage of the meal.

Best regards,
Alex R.

I'm with Melissa on simple protein with red wine. Given a choice I would choose a deli meat tray with some bread to go with almost any red. I find it a bit annoying when people try to force feed me a certain cheese with a wine. A cheese rarely enhances a wine, in my opinion.

It's always amazing to me the different takes on what "works" as far as wine/cheese matching, I have to think it's genetic taste differences!

For me, the best match for reds is generally fairly dry/hard cheeses, things such as aged Manchego, aged Gouda, Ossau Iraty, English cheddars.
I find softer cheeses do better with white or bubbly. Since our dinner parties tend to have reds with main course, I usually pick a couple of these to continue with the reds, and one or two cheeses to match with the dessert wine (if having Port then Stilton, if Auslese maybe something with a washed rind, etc)/

Why, oh why, do so many people persist in thinking that ANY cheese is the ideal pairing for fine red wine?

...Beaune/camembert, my answer to your question might be: Gee. Because THEY like it?

I completely sympathise with Tim. Red wine and cheese is difficult, and Burgundy and Camembert would probably be a perfect example of how bad the combo can be, but there are exeptions for me and those exceptions tend to be wines (such as Rioja) working with mature hard cheeses (such as Manchego or Gouda - which can be fantastic matches). Actually, I'm finding it hard to think of any wine lover I know who has explored wine and cheese matching with consideration (various combinations, paying attention to detail) and found the situation to be very different... granted there is personal taste, but even this thread has validated the case(!), for example:

For me, the best match for reds is generally fairly dry/hard cheeses, things such as aged Manchego, aged Gouda, Ossau Iraty, English cheddars.

if you're talking red wine hard cheeses are generally the way to go. Aged Gouda for example.