Wineloving cultural differences

Not sure if people here are interested, but I cartainly would be interested to hear what everyone here thinks is different about the various wineloving cultures of different countries . What are the differences between another wineloving culture and that of your own countr(ies) of residence? What issues are important in one place but not another, and why do you think so? How is wine appreciated differently in the different places? What is more or less valued in one relative to another? Thanks.

Lots of angles (and steretoypes - some more accurate/misguided than others) for this conversation to take.

I prefer to sit back and let other people cast the first stones, but maybe you had something in mind that you wanted to posit? I certainly know very little firsthand about wine culture in Australia.

If we're talking stereotypes:

Well, Brits, at least the older ones, have a reputation for wine necrophilia--they don't consider a wine at its peak until the rest of the world considers it to have at least two feet firmly in the grave.

Americans are notorious for liking young, over-oaked fruit bombs.

The French like whatever they haven't sold to the rest of the world yet.

-Paul W.

Well, Brits, at least the older ones, have a reputation for wine necrophilia--they don't consider a wine at its peak until the rest of the world considers it to have at least two feet firmly in the grave.

Britain

As a generalisation I would say that Britain has become quite schizophrenic in its tastes.

The traditional wine loving classes tended to prefer wines as you describe, Paul, particularly Bordeaux; their standard bearer and spokesman is Michael Broadbent. I think that there was always a hankering after a certain richness, e.g. Lafite Hermitagé, vintage port. The love of Bordeaux persists with those who can afford it but for the rest the restrained style is sought elsewhere and usually younger, e.g. from the Loire. Horizons tend to be much more global than a generation ago.

The new British consumers, who make up the vast majority, buying in supermarkets, tend to prefer the New World oaky fruit bomb style.

France

It is even more difficult the generalise about the French because each wine-growing region engenders fierce loyalties. The Parisian taste which should be more neutral seems to lean towards a more light and elegant style and wines like CndP tend to be regarded as too heavy. Most people drink wines young. Under the influence of the public health jihadists, many Politically Correct French are beginning to prefer water and soft drinks , particularly the ladies for whom the beautiful body is an additional concern. As a general proposition, the better French wines tend to be more elegant, focussed and digestible than their counterparts elsewhere, which is partly a function of climate and partly of taste.

Very few French will venture outside their own national production, although the RVF is increasingly reviewing and praising foreign wines and the leading French critic, Michel Bettane, is an outspoken admirer of German Riesling and Barolo.

Belgium

French speaking Belgium, where I live, has a broadly French taste with perhaps a greater liking for the rich end of the spectrum, Burgundy, CndP, Pomerol, etc.

The Flemish are, I think, much more open to the wines of the world.

Italy

Given Italy's rich portfolio of tangy, quite acidic but food friendly wines, I was surprised to be told the other day by an importer that the "average" Italian prefers more supple wine made from French grape varieties like Merlot .

The world has grown much more alike in the recent decades. Thirty years ago there was much more cultural differences. The people in Germanic countries drank practically nothing except white wine. The lighter the mean the drier the wine, the heavier the meal, the sweeter the wine. There are traces of this here in and there, but by and large New World styles and types are taking over almost everywhere.

In rural areas you will find exceptions. Only ten the fifteen percent of Italian wine gets onto the world market. All the rest is consumed at home in Italy wherever home is. Friends ask what wines to drink when travelling to Italy, and we always advise them to drink whatever is offered.

All rampant generalisations, so have the salt shaker to hand

Italy also could be cut into two camps:
Those that see wine as as essential part of any meal, often simple tangy wine to ease the food on it's way vs. those that see Italian wine as something of real class and for whom quality comes to the fore.

Plenty of national pride in both Australia and Italy (and I assume France and others) over the quality of the local wines. Sometimes it can get a bit jingoistic / one-eyed.

Plenty of chat at the mo' about how Chinese buying is focussed on prestige & upholding an image, yet plenty of instances of this in UK and US (and I'm sure elsewhere)

Vintage chasing: It seems biggest in the US, where forums (less so here) are often dominated by notes from tasting events where Bdxs come from 1990s 1982s 2000s and other 'perfect' vintages. There's still vintage chasing over here, yet there seems a bit more interest in supposedly average or weak vintages.

Distribution chain - A huge issue in parts of the US and some north European countries, there's internationally lots of different setups, from massive chains/supermarkets, to nations where supermarkets aren't allowed to sell wine. Online vs. bricks & mortar. Online (e.g. Australia) vs. live auctions (e.g. UK)

Wines by the glass in wine bars & restaurants. Bloody awful here, vs. wonderful choice in Italy. Markups also vary significantly, as does BYO availability.

There's a few to chew over

regards

Ian

[David M. Bueker]

The US wine culture (I'm really not sure we have one) is quite fractured, but that really makes a lot of sense. There is little connection between the Yellow Tail/Beringer White Zin side of the spectrum and the Napa Cab side. Then there is the geeky part of the culture (proud member here) that has a serious cae of schizophrenia - with camps firmly entrenched into the Cali/Bordeaux/CNdP section of the wine world and those spending the majority of their time with Burgundy/Beaujolais/Germany/Italy.

Interesting discussion this but do we run the risk of casting stereotypes? Also, the picture may get muddled if we include nations/regions that do not produce noteworthy wines or don't imbibe as much as some of us think the average human should. And even within a country such as France, as Tim points out, there are regional preferences. Besides, our perceptions are going to be colored by what we think of other cultures. Prejudices may come into play when we assume that certain classes or people only prefer white zinfandel. Heck, it is like me stating that the Left Coast of the US drinks better wine in general than the East Coast!!

[David M. Bueker]

Heck, it is like me stating that the Left Coast of the US drinks better wine in general than the East Coast!!

Well they don't!

"Well they don't!

But I have this study to back me in which 7 random people were posed that question and they differed

Not sure how much of a cultural difference this is but I always find it interesting to see why certain producers are not necessarily revered in their home country but get a lot of respect abroad.

One often finds this dynamic with German wines because of the domestic preference for dry wines and the international preference for off-dry wines. Pretty staightforward, although it can lead to cultural hiccups when international folks discuss wine and wine producers with Germans.

Less straightforward are some examples from France where certain producers almost have cult followings in the US (Pepiere, Texier) but don't receive much attention at home. I wouldn't say this is due to international hype, because I think the wines from both producers are objectively delicious. But I guess it's a function of where the marketing and promotion occurs. Because there is certainly plenty of marketing and promotion inside France but I guess these two produces have their efforts focused elsewhere.

Éric Texier is an interesting case. His website http://www.eric-texier.com/en/index.html shows several French sales outlets but there are more in the USA (and none in Belgium ). From what I read I feel fairly certain that his wines would appeal to French and Belgian wine geeks.

Pépière rates a favourable mention in the Bettane/Desseauve guide but none in the RVF guide. Texier is in neither.

Some interesting observations, thanks for sharing.

I recognise our observations are simply generalisations, and we should be careful how much we read into our experiences etc. I should perhaps also make it clear I'm talking about the wine drinking culture of people who would be considered wine geeks, not about people who just like drinking wine (I think a definite distinction can be made). The conversation's focused more on wine drinking (though I appreciate the points made by those who have commented more broadly). I'll limit my observations to wine drinking habits (it's a broad enough topic itself, I know).

I tend to agree with most of the observations re the USA (AFAIK) and the UK. I'd go a step further with the French and say that many French winelovers seem not just to be content drinking wine from France, but are actually content drinking only French wine from a limited number of French regions. British winelovers possibly have more eclectic tastes than the French, and I think the history of trade and the fact that Britain doesn't produce a significant quantity of wine are driving factors, though I do agree there's a bit of a divide between those in the UK who tend to like "modern" styles (riper, oakier, smoother; like New World warm/hot climate reds) and those who like more traditional styles (more acidic, less fruity; like traditional Bordeaux or Loire) - but those are sweeping generalisations, and I think the truth is that there are more winelovers whose tastes cover wines across the whole spectrum than many seem to believe.

The Dutch seem in a pretty similar situation to the Brits, though there are minor differences in the popularity of certain appellations (e.g., Banyuls and small-production Sherry seem more popular than they are in the UK).

After years of corporate conglomeration, Australia seems to be developing a lot more boutique wineries (with a move towards the vigneron-approach as opposed to buying fruit from others). Generally, Australian wine lovers' experiences of foreign wine are limited relative to winelovers in northern Europe or the USA (due to the high cost of imports), and this has significant repercussions. For example, there seems to be a bit of reverse snobbism about Aussie wines (which possibly stems from old inferiority complexes); and I think there's less of an appreciation of mineral-driven wines or earth/funk/animal/vegetal/herbaceous/Brett-derived flavours, whereas those are more accepted in, say, Britain, and almost expected in France. But things are changing.

From what I've seen, there's a relatively recent divide in Italian wine drinking culture in general, with a lot of younger people preferring wine as a stand-alone drink with nibbles vs. the older generation who'd drink (perhaps more traditional styles) with meals. This does seem to extend to Italian winelovers too.

Swiss winelovers are massive followers of their own wines (well, they are pretty nationalistic ), but with plenty of French (especially Burgundy - makes sense given the location) and ripe New World styles thrown in too.

Well, that covers a few...

Generalizations may not always be very accurate but they are always convenient and at least pretty near the truth in some cases. Think, for example, of Charles Dickens' complaint that "there is not a window in all of Paris that closes as it should". That was probably as true in Dickens' day as it is now.

A bit away from generalizations however, various comparative studies carried out by the Universities of Montpellier, Geneva, Aix-Marseilles, and Torino have shown:

a: People living in the Mediterranean basin tend to enjoy a bit more of "green-ness" in their wines.
b: Those in Eastern European countries find red wines with a bit of residual sugar much to their taste.
c: Those in former Soviet states enjoy more than a bit of sweetness in their Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc and Viognier.
d: In countries where vodka is consumed in relatively large proportion to other beverages, many enjoy their wines on a lower alcoholic level than those in other countries.
e: Unusual as it seems, rose wines are more appreciated in northern, cold weather parts of Europe than they are in the Meditteranean area.
f: Earthiness and/or a modicum of Brett are enjoyed most in France, Israel and the southern parts of Italy
g: Sensitivity to TCA seems to be (only tentative conclusions) higher in northern rather than southern parts of Europe but no causal relationship in genetics has been determined in this.
i: Blind tastings have shown that those residing in Italy and Spain can more easily distinguish between Champagne and Cava than those in France.

As a single example of how cross-cultural taste differences impact on the wine industry - about eight years ago Gallo made a move to enter the Israeli wine market and indeed they did that with their mid- and upper-range reds and whites. Alas, someone in California decided that Israeli tastes in wine would be much as they are in countries such as Bulgaria and Poland and they sent over semi-dry Chardonnays, and super-soft, fruit-foward and almost non-tannic reds. Let it merely be pointed out that Gallo shot themselves in the foot so badly that their wines have been withdrawn from sale. Simply stated, after a host of tastings, people decided that the wines of Gallo would do well to remain in Bulgaria and Poland.


Best
Rogov

Looking at very local wine consumption--I have belonged to the Fayetteville (NC) wine society since it started over three years ago. The membership seems to run heavily to doctors and their wives and real estate brokers (women as well as men.) The majority are middle aged or older but there are some young singles and young couples also including some from the military. I am encouraged that more young people will develop into wine drinkers as several restaurants in town have weekly wine tastings that attract a younger crowd. Even Harris Teeter grocery store holds a weekly wine tasting. At the wine dinners I attend in the Raleigh area, I often encounter wine lovers of British origin. I sometimes ask if they grew up in an environment where wine was a regular feature of the main meal and the answer is usually yes. In my home (in Lincoln, Nebraska,) liquor was usually not served with dinner. Sometimes my parents had a cocktail (Bourbon usually) before dinner. We only had wine on holidays such as Thanksgiving, Easter, Christmas and New Year's Day and then usually plonk wine. (After I returned from living in Germany I introduced my parents and some of their friends to Piesporter Mosel wines and that became a staple in the household.)

When I lived in California, wine was more a part of the culture in restaurants and for weekend winery visits (as one would expect in wine country.) Most of my friends had at least a small collection of wines in their homes and were more apt to offer visitors and guests a glass of wine rather than a cocktail.

When I lived in Germany, white wine was indeed the primary wine (except perhaps in Baden.) Dry Rieslings were not that prevalent and many Germans ordered beer with their meals rather than wine. In Wurzburg you saw many local Franken wines on the wine list but in Darmstadt (Hesse) you could find Mosels, Rheingaus, Rheinhessens, etc. I enjoyed the Weinfest culture with celebrations in Enkirch/Mosel tied to a weekend of Volksmarching or a strawberry wine festival in Heidelberg or the Bad Kreuznach Weinfest. You might also notice a sign advertising wine for sale while driving through the Saar region and could stop for a personal wine tasting with the vintner. We also had a group of Americans going by bus from Darmstadt to a pre-arranged wine tasting in another town. Cruises along the Rhine River included stops in Rudesheim for some wine indulgence. All this contributed to the idea that wines are fun and life enriching without the goal of getting drunk.

To throw in my two cents, I want to comment on the state of wine appreciation in Canada. Actually, make that Alberta, Canada - since I'm sure there's a big difference between each province, as the liquor laws are regulated provincially and therefore product availability is very different from province to province. Also, there are a lot more Canadian wines available in the towns and cities near the wine regions of BC and Ontario, so naturally people there probably drink a lot more local stuff (lucky ducks).

In Alberta, for those of us that actually drink wine, the choice is very often the heavily marketed New World wines, as you might expect. Argentinean Malbec, Aussie Shiraz, Californian Cab - those types of wines. You'll notice that the chain liquor stores stock up on lots of bulk New World wine, and that their Old World sections are virtually nonexistent - and I wouldn't recommend drinking what they do have, since they've probably been on those shelves for ages.

However, there is a growing contingent of wine geeks in this city and the rest of Alberta (Calgary is admittedly ahead of Edmonton in this respect). The opening of several new wine bars in the last year attests to this. So, there are a few specialty wine stores that stock good selections of wines from all over, including and especially the New World. But, inevitably, the owners' preferences factor in heavily. For example, one fine wine store here stocks predominantly Californian and Australian wine, while another one has a huge Italian wine section.

Still, I'll take a biased fine wine selection over the rivers of Painted Turtle spilling from all the bloody Liquor Depots around here.

various comparative studies carried out by the Universities of Montpellier, Geneva, Aix-Marseilles, and Torino have shown...

Interesting to see some hard data. Can you share the references, Rogov?

Ben, Hi....

Will have one of my research assistants try to dig those up and will respond to you by IM or email. Right now out of country so give me until the beginning of next week.

Best
Rogov

Rogov - some of those points seem not just counterintuitive but odd. a. what does 'greenness' mean? usually under ripeness; but the area mentioned is where grapes usually ripen the best. c. only these varieties? seems odd. e. but most of the worlds rose is made in exactly that area - or the french part at least. puzzling.

much of the US and Canada seems to like their wines at least slightly sweet. it isn't just the chards but even the cabs from california - even those from napa. in a blind tasting i once misidentified a napa cab as an amarone.

Will have one of my research assistants try to dig those up and will respond to you by IM or email. Right now out of country so give me until the beginning of next week.

Thanks.