Wine Snobbery Really P****es Me Off

Pretention is my major wine hobbyist pet-peeve. I experienced snobbery of the highest order on another board when I posted on a Mouton Cadet rouge that I liked, and communicated the fact that an MC was confused with a classed growth at a blind tasting. Here are two of the responses I received. Makes me want to take up beer drinking... full time.

This discussion should not be about Mouton Cadet but I can't believe there is anyone who has any experience of Bordeaux who would confuse it with a classed growth. I have 5-7€ Petits Chateaux in my cellar that are far more interesting and rewarding that MC which sells for 10€.

Let's get things in perspective. MC is THE most mass-produced Bordeaux wine. They make 1.2 million bottles of the white each year. That is over 30 times the annual production of my whole estate. I'm sure the red is far more numerous.

The red was not even listed by Le Guide Hachette.

It's a consistently average wine and is probably the worst wine to use as an example of vintage variation in Bordeaux.

I would be willing to bet a lot of money that without the "Baron Phillipe de Rothschild" on the label it would be a complete flop. Maybe I'm ranting on a little bit but my view is that the only people who buy it are people who think they are buying the second wine of Mouton Rothschild.

I cannot believe that we are even discussing Mouton-Cadet...it's like talking about the merits of a vertical of Conundrum...another mass-produced drink aimed at the sweet tooth of Americans with more money than sense.

Many big production wines & large-productions regions (take Cava, for example) have excellent quality, M-C just isn't one of them.

There are outstanding petits châteaux that cost less, Mouton-Cadet is simply a mass-produced quaffer, a vin de primeur, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Sam, Hi…..

First of all let me say that any wine that you enjoy is a fine wine and worthy of discussion. To that, however, let me add that Mouton Cadet (red, white, rose or the reserve editions) are indeed mass-market wines and in that, in my opinion, lack interest. True, when the mood, the moment and the company are "right" any wine of our choice can be delicious. That does not, however, mean that the wine in question will meet the standards that you/we/I are looking for in most cases.

Following is an essay I wrote about Mouton-Cadet some years ago. I hope that does not throw me into the category of "wine-snobs"

Best
Rogov


The Bastard Son of Baron Philippe

Several of my readers recently noted that during the many years I have been writing about wine, I have never devoted a word to Mouton-Cadet. On reflection, this lapse may be related to my hesitation to write about the wine I cannot help but think of as the bastard son of Baron Philippe de Rothschild.

In 1922, when Baron Philippe took over the operation of Chateau Mouton Rothschild, he set himself the task of transforming an good already excellent chateau into one of the very best in the world. In a sense, the wine of Chateau Mouton Rothschild was the Baron's first child, and by the late 1930's, the wines of Mouton Rothschild had been acknowledged as among the world's greatest. Along the way, the Baron fathered several other children. Remaining in Bordeaux, he fathered Chateau Clerc-Milon, the wines of which often attain excellence, and Chateau Armailhac, which makes wines good enough to have been referred to by English critic Oz Clarke as "a dress rehearsal for Mouton Rothschild".

Later, working together with Robert Mondavi, he fathered the Opus 1 winery in California's Napa Valley, and before his death in 1988 he laid the groundwork for the birth of a joint venture with Chilean winery Concha y Toro. The wines of Opus 1 are always extravagant, often excellent and invariably overpriced and the wines of the Chilean venture, named “Almaviva” may well be the best ever produced in South America. For the record, the Baron also had time to father Philippine, now the Baroness de Rothschild who since her father's death has continued to manage the family estates with both passion and intelligence.

During the early 1930s, perhaps more with an eye to profit than love, Baron Philippe also spawned Mouton-Cadet, and since its birth many have considered the red wine that carries this name to be the not very well respected bastard of the family. Unlike the great wines of Bordeaux, which rely on the highest quality grapes from specified vineyards, Mouton-Cadet (which also comes in white and rose versions) uses grapes that are harvested throughout the entire region of Bordeaux. Using the traditional Bordeaux formula, the red wine is made from a blend of three grapes, Merlot, Cabernet Sauvignon and Cabernet Franc (65%, 20% and 15% respectively). Because blending takes place in huge quantities, the winemakers have a high level of control over how the wine will taste and there is little difference between wines from different vintage years. The result is a medium bodied wine with smooth tannins, traditional blackcurrant and berry aromas and flavors and just a hint of sweetness. The problem with all of this is that although red Mouton Cadet is always acceptable it is never sophisticated, exciting or special. Whatever one thinks of the wine, however, one has no choice but to acknowledge that despite (or perhaps in some perverse way, because of) its distance from greatness and its relatively high price wherever you find it, Mouton-Cadet is the world-wide best selling red wine of Bordeaux. If I had to give the wine an overall score that score would be a modest 84.

Here is a big fall out over a famous Chinese beer! Some folks here came to blows, not to be missed.

http://www.wine-pages.com/ubb/ultimateb ... 000478;p=1

I have never understood "experts" that don't understand the people have different perceptions of good and bad based upon what they like. What's good to you may not be good to me and the reverse. No one argues with the person who does not like brussel sprouts - well not much at least. Yet having different tastes on wine can result in being taken out behind the wood shed.

Also I never understand how the "wine experts" forget that every bottle is unique. Not sure where the quote originated and if I even have it correct but there is no great wines, only great bottles is definetly true in my experience. I worked a winery tasting room for a year when I was much younger and got to taste hundreds of bottles of the same wine over that time. The bottle variation and/or evolution of the wine was at times shocking. To dismiss all bottles of a wine producer as inferior shows a lack of understanding that strange things can happen with wine and some bottles at certain times during the life of a wine can show vastly better than anyone would expect.

Sam, I don't know if an alternate view is useful feedback, but I found the comments you quoted perfectly reasonable! It's certainly useful for me to be reminded of how what I find reasonable may come off as snobbish to others.

Rogov,

My post made the case that the Mouton Cadet rouge has improved in quality significantly over the past few years, and is now a very good value, in my opinion. I have absolutely no problem with descenting opinions, but for someone to claim that the wine is unworthy of discussion, and is only purchased by those stupid enough to believe it to be a Rothschild second growth, is insulting. Certainly the MC wines are massed produced. Though the 2006 MC rouge did fool experienced tasters in Chicago I do understand that the wine is not on par with classed growths in general.

The disagreement did not anger me, the highbrow attitude did. I have enough experience, and thick enough skin to put such comments in perspective, but someone new to the hobby may have been put off enough to abandon it all together.

Here is a big fall out over a famous Chinese beer! Some folks here came to blows, not to be missed.

http://www.wine-pages.com/ubb/ultimateb ... 000478;p=1

I'm not a beer expert by any definition but I do usually drink it with Chinese or Mexican food. The Chinese beer you mentioned in my mind was the only one that had was as bad as Coors IMHO. I've not tasted Mouton Cadet in a few years but I remember so many other bordeauxs that were cheaper and better. Maybe it has changed drastically, next time I see it somewhere I'll give it a try. It really was crap for many years with no social redeeming value.

Sam, I don't know if an alternate view is useful feedback, but I found the comments you quoted perfectly reasonable! It's certainly useful for me to be reminded of how what I find reasonable may come off as snobbish to others.

I'm with Oswaldo, hard for me to see this as snobbery of the highest order, just seems like reasoned opinions to me. When you post an opinion on a wine, other people might disagree. I've had several disagreements with Oswaldo, but he's still a friend! With both posters stating that they preferred some petit chateaux that sell for less than MC, hard to see it as at least traditional snobbery.

I'm glad you liked it. Though as Rogov says it is produced in huge blending facilities, the production is so big that I would guess there would have to be at least a bit of variation between batches. So what you taste might not be exactly what others get, though they strive for uniformity.
What were the other wines in the Chicago tasting?

Makes me want to take up beer drinking... full time.

As a seasoned beer drinker and babbler I can tell you that barley drinkers can be at least as snobbish as the grape gulpers. Ten minutes on Beer Advocate will prove that (no offense it's a fine site that I use often).

I will have to agree with most folks above, I didn't take the examples you posted as snobbery, rather just very strong opinions. Certainly the second person makes the case that it's not just big dollar, first growths that make good juice.

Sam, I'm going to have to chime in with the others here.

The only thing I can see in those two examples that I'd construe as wine snobbery would be the leading sentences..."I can't believe we're talking about Mouton Cadet here..." And even then, it's not an out of the order statement, because most wine boards don't sit around and discuss the relative merits of Mouton Cadet.

Wine forum/board/chat people as a rule aren't normally drinking those wines, and most of them certainly aren't interesting about drinking that kind of wine, and they are likely to be a bit caustic about that.

Mind you, I think there is an awful lot of wine snobbery. On the boards, and otherwhere. Comes with the territory, I'm afraid, all that pretention. But I don't think---given the examples you've quoted---that this fits under that definition.

Well, except for Oswaldo. He's a noted wine snob. Famous, in fact. He can't walk in the rain without an umbrella. It's awful. Really.

Sam,
You're wrong again, or so it seems.
Be well and watch the blood pressure.
Winger

Well, except for Oswaldo. He's a noted wine snob. Famous, in fact. He can't walk in the rain without an umbrella. It's awful. Really.

All these years of being better than everyone else does that to a guy!

In my experience, those most prone to wine snobbery are also those most prone to mistake a mass-market wine such as Mouton Cadet for a premium wine such as a classified growth when served the wine blind. True wine lovers have usually experienced a humbling, if not embarrassing blind wine experience. They are aware of their limitations. And they don't have a need to show off in front of others.

-Paul W.

You're right, Paul. Astute observation of the species.

However, there are two situations/attitudes that apply here too.

The first is that mano a mano crap that comes out at times, reflecting that most (or the most voluble) winenerds are male and tend to get all testosteronal at times, trying to compete with and one-up the other guy. Then the snobbishness (childishness) comes out.

The other is when a group of wine people starts to form, they get so wrapped up in themselves, so internalized, so group-think oriented, they often fail to understand how they might appear to someone not "of the group". Easiest case in point is when a spouse or significant other, or friend, gets invited to participate, and that new person doesn't share the interest, understand the gamesmanship or protocol, or express any interest in learning the secret handshake and gang signs. In those cases, wine people can be the most snobbish of people.

Being a wine geek doesn't confer any rank or honor to make you a superior person. Not being a wine geek doesn't lessen you either (although listening to wine geeks, you'd think so.)

Okay! Everyone who took the side of the hater-snobs... you are now on my list! You do not want to be on my list! No you don't.

Okay! Everyone who took the side of the hater-snobs... you are now on my list! You do not want to be on my list! No you don't.

Calm down, Del Monte Boy.

Okay! Everyone who took the side of the hater-snobs... you are now on my list! You do not want to be on my list! No you don't.

I'm not worried, I know without fear of contadiction there are no branches of the Mafia in Indiana. Just not hip enough, very little hard core night life, zero excellent Southern Italian food, I could go on. Now Sam might be able to hire an out of work Notre Dame Football coach, desperation drives men to do strange things.

Okay! Everyone who took the side of the hater-snobs... you are now on my list! You do not want to be on my list! No you don't.

I'm not worried, I know without fear of contadiction there are no branches of the Mafia in Indiana. Just not hip enough, very little hard core night life, zero excellent Southern Italian food, I could go on. Now Sam might be able to hire an out of work Notre Dame Football coach, desperation drives men to do strange things.

Hey, Lou, don't you think that Sam might be able to hire me for the job? (Traceless poisons and all that) With the lure of getting unfettered access to your fabled cellar (not mention an extra seat for BettyLu's cassoulet) how could I resist? Even the UU secret handshake might not be enough to stave off the inevitable.

Bruno da Enforcer

Everyone's taste is different. Just because you happen to like a mass market wine doesn't mean you aren't a wine lover. I do think the comments in the initial post did imply that liking a mass market wine made one. shall we say, less worthy. And I think we are all guilty, me included, of sometimes being insenstive to how others may interpet our judgments as negative to their tastes.

Glenn

The wines I'm most proud of "discovering" are those that are at the same time cheap, plentiful, and delicious. And there are actually quite a number of those, spurned by the lemmings who follow the major wine critics. Not to say that I don't appreciate great wine monuments such as 1929 Mouton-Rothschild. I do (especially if someone else is paying for them). But equally I fondly remember that uncomplicated but delicious nameless Cotes du Rhone served (bottle kept in an ice bucket) at lunch in an outdoor cafe in Orange.

-Paul W.