Declassified wines/Second labels

Is there an online source that, with some thoroughness, matches up well regarded Calif and French wineries or chateaux with their second labels? At dinner last night I had a declassified Chassagne-Montrachet and a really nice Syrah that was also a declassified wine. Not too surprisingly, I had not heard of either of them but it did cause me to want to learn more about declassified wines in general.

Pretty complicated questions (and second labels and declassification are really separate things). I'd say on the whole that when I hear a retailer saying "this is declassified XXXX" I generally run for the hills, it's often a sign of total c#@p! There's a reason that wasn't sold as Hermitage or Puligny, or under the primary label.

This Wikipedia page lists a lot of Bdx seconds"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_wine

There's a lot of range there as to how good the seconds are, with a few like Clos du Marquis actually being separate plots.
Remember, character might be really different. Let say Chateau Peterson makes 10000 cases a year, 8K of the grand vin, and 2K of their second, Le Little Jon. Vineyards are 40% CS, 40% Merlot, 20% CF. if say it is a better year for CS and CF than Merlot, the blend for the grand vin might be 50% CS, 25% CF, 25% Merlot. Leaving Le Little Jon 100% Merlot.

Thanks, Dale, for the education. I guess I've had good luck with second labels (when I knew that's what I was drinking), but then I drink far fewer really good wines than you do, I believe. Your example of the makeup of a second wine was clear.

Through an idiotic move (shutting wrong window) I just lost a LONG reply.

Short version- there are great wines out there that are actually second labels, or actually declassifed (Chambolle 1er being sold as Chambolle AC, younger vines Cornas being sold as CdR even if it qualifies, etc). There are others that are really good that described as declassified but aren't really (I heard someone describe Lafarge's Bourgogne as declassified Volnay- well, the area was declassified years ago, so no longer can be called Volnay, so wine isn't really declassified by normal definition).

However, some things people claim as declassified aren't- and suck. And most wines that are actually declassified are declassified for a quality reason.

Here's a wine (from the property of LLC) that I have felt consistently underperformed its hype
http://www.turnerwineimports.com/terre_du_lion_.html

Very interesting. Thanks for posting the question Jon … and to Dale for the great insight and the good information. That robust list of 2nd wines from wiki is pretty informative. Suddenly, I have a hankering to try a Lady Langoa (if only find one in these parts here).

Although I’m in no position to generalize the 2nds as a whole, I’ll quip in that in addition to Clos du Marquis, I’ve come upon a couple of vintages where the 2nd wine from Montrose also shined.

Btw, how could you (Dale) dismiss the Terre du Lion as having “consistently underperformed its hype”, especially when the sales verbiage clearly states that “The 2000 vintage is much darker, richer, and more impressive. (This is what just missed the cut of being a 100-point wine.).”?

Second wines have become increasingly important in the overall scheme of things in Bordeaux. Several chateaux now produce more of their second wine than the "grand vin". Cht. Lagrange comes to mind. The fruit (unless it is sourced from separate vineyards, like Dale mentioned with Clos de Marquis, and also Le Carraudes (Lafite)) is usually young vines. They do replace the vine after 40-50 years, so there is a constant transition throughout the vineyards. "Old vines" are not a big deal in Bordeaux, thought they exist. They don't consider the vines acceptable for the "grand vin" until maybe 8-10 years old. Any damaged fruit or less than standard grapes will go into the second wine. Also less Cab, more Merlot, and less oak, designed to be consumed earlier, but sometimes can last for a while. A good intro into the classed growths. Like everything else, some are better than others, but most of what I've had has been worth the price of admission, which is usually 50%-75% of what the "grand vin" costs. It is noteworthy when a chateau puts more wine into their second, than their first. They are trying to maximize the quality of the "grand vin", and why Bdx seems to hang on to it's title as the World's Greatest blend. They have my vote.

Short version- there are great wines out there that are actually second labels, or actually declassifed (Chambolle 1er being sold as Chambolle AC, younger vines Cornas being sold as CdR even if it qualifies, etc).

I understand Jadot (and probably other negociants) do this on a regular basis for marketing reasons. It is easier to create "Jadot Beaune", and "Jadot Beaune 1er Cru" brands, where the wine is selected from qualifying wines by Jadot according to their perceived quality, than it is to label and market them under the many 1er Cru vineyard names that very few have heard of anyway.

There are others that are really good that described as declassified but aren't really (I heard someone describe Lafarge's Bourgogne as declassified Volnay- well, the area was declassified years ago, so no longer can be called Volnay, so wine isn't really declassified by normal definition).

There are also wines that would normally be sold under a higher apellation, but just fell short on one criterion or other, perhaps due to a record-keeping lapse. I think these are also commonly referred to as declassified. Arguably this is where the bargains are to be had.

While second wines are not declassified in any way, in Bordeaux you also get the situation where the top Chateaux have done all the blending they want to and have wine left over. This is sold on, and certain wine merchants love to drop hints as to where the wine originated. I suppose in Bordeaux terms that is a kind of declassification.

I don't think you can generalise about these wines. Some will be good and some bad. Indeed, that is also the case of wines of the appelations they were declassified from!

Two major advantages of second labels, especially from Bordeaux:

1. Second label wines are almost invariably destined for earlier drinking than the flagship label and in that tend to give a preview in miniature of what one can expect from the first wine five or more years down the proverbial line.

2. Although one must be discrete in purchasing, many second label wines are excellent in quality and in cellaring ability and far less dear than the first label wines.

In the case of Bordeaux, the Rhone and Burgundy for example, as in parts of Italy, wineries are proud of their second labels and make this well known. One problem that does arise is that many California wineries are not quite as proud of their second label wines and send them to market with little indication that they come from the same estate as their better-known wines.

One specific note: Les Forts de Latour (the second wine of Chateau Latour) has released a wine this year under both cork and Stelvin closures. My guess is that they are testing the market for the Stelvins. In case anyone asks, I will not be buying the Stelvin-sealed bottles for my own drinking. I will, however, purchase a case of each in order to taste them over the next dozen or fifteen years.

Best
Rogov

I’ll quip in that in addition to Clos du Marquis, I’ve come upon a couple of vintages where the 2nd wine from Montrose also shined.
Btw, how could you (Dale) dismiss the Terre du Lion as having “consistently underperformed its hype”, especially when the sales verbiage clearly states that “The 2000 vintage is much darker, richer, and more impressive. (This is what just missed the cut of being a 100-point wine.).”?

Ramon,
I agree re La Dame du Montrose -often a very good wine. But in a way the LDdM is a good example of what I was saying re style. Daniel mentions the seconds being made for earlier drinking, and the LDdM is typically much softer/plusher stylistically than the Montrose. So I like the wine, but object to the idea that you're getting "the Montrose experience" at less money. But I like it for what it is.
That "just missed the cut" BS is what irritates me, the point is it didn't make the cut, and there's no way of knowing by "how much." It's like saying my Corolla came in second in the drag race with the 911.

Several chateaux now produce more of their second wine than the "grand vin". Cht. Lagrange comes to mind.

The Les Fiefs is often a fine value, and quite well priced. But other second labels aren't so well priced, they're more than many estates first wines - I'd rather spend my money on the actual Ch Lagrange than the similarly priced second of Cos.

why Bdx seems to hang on to it's title as the World's Greatest blend. They have my vote.

Well, mine too, but let's admit that most of the other great wine regions don't concentrate on blends!

I understand Jadot (and probably other negociants) do this on a regular basis for marketing reasons. It is easier to create "Jadot Beaune", and "Jadot Beaune 1er Cru" brands, where the wine is selected from qualifying wines by Jadot according to their perceived quality, than it is to label and market them under the many 1er Cru vineyard names that very few have heard of anyway

Exactly. If one has a short term contract for a small quantity (a barrel or two) of a lesser 1er, but easier to blend it into the Beaune AC (or if you have a generic 1er) than to try to develop a market for a "Les Pertuisots" 1er. Or if you have one barrel of Fixin or Maranges to just put in your Bourgogne.

One specific note: Les Forts de Latour (the second wine of Chateau Latour) has released a wine this year under both cork and Stelvin closures. My guess is that they are testing the market for the Stelvins.

Interesting. This is the 2008?

I can't find any mention of this Forts under screwcap. If anyone sees it advertised, I'd love to know, I'd like to put away a few for comparison.

I can't find any mention of this Forts under screwcap. If anyone sees it advertised, I'd love to know, I'd like to put away a few for comparison.

Sometimes a retailer or region will request Stelvin. I believe that Pichon Comtesse bottled 4000 cases of their second wine in 2004 for the English market, by request. Don't know if they did for subsequent vintages. So they may be doing it for a select market. Clearly a work in progress. The winemakers will have to push their wines along a little (micro-ox, stirring of the lees, etc.) before putting the lid on aging with srewcaps. But I am in the camp that will accept natural cork, with (my experience) less than 2% failure rate. Go ahead and start this thread again. It's always fun so see the passion on both sides.

[Jenise]

I can't find any mention of this Forts under screwcap. If anyone sees it advertised, I'd love to know, I'd like to put away a few for comparison.

The proprietor of the restaurant I had lunch at yesterday (with a 30,000 bottle cellar) had participated in a tasting of Burgundies the week before wherein the same wines had been bottled under both Stelvin and cork. The purpose was to compare the difference: he said the difference was startling, that the wines didn't even taste like the same wine, though there was no clear preference among the tasters for the wines of one closure. Sometimes they preferred the Stelvin, sometimes they didn't.

I can't find any mention of this Forts under screwcap. If anyone sees it advertised, I'd love to know, I'd like to put away a few for comparison.

Dale, Hi....

My information came directly from one of the major Bordeaux negotiants. The wine, from the 2009 vintage has not yet been released and, even though I am avoiding 2009 futures, have already placed my first order for a case each of the Les Forts under both closures as much as an "experiment" as anything else. I believe the Stelvin closures are destined partly for the Far East and partly for the UK. I will fill in as I learn more.

Best
Rogov

thanks, hopefully they will be offered in US, too. I was surprised due to remembering someone saying Engerer was among the most virulent screwcap opponents.