Tell me the truth re: Bordeaux

Is it just not possible to find a good/very good ready Bordeaux for a reasonable price (aka high QPR)? Could it be the moderate ($20) bottles I've found actually need to be sat on for decades before they're worth my time? Pretty much every Bordeaux I've tried has been disappointing at best. Now it's not liked I've waded through hundreds but I've had a fair few now, from Right Bank, from Left Bank, Supérieur (which I now take to be the French word for "Not Very Good Honestly"), etc. At this point I don't think CA Cabs will be doing me any favors either will they?

The nearest thing of enjoyment I found was an $8.99 Chateau Les Arrowmanns (Entre Duex Mers) though it was a bit tiresome on the tongue after a while. So far no reds have done it for me at all.

So is the true enjoyment from this region left to those with large pocketbooks and the ability to sit on something till the kids are out of college?

Pinging AlexR.

[David M. Bueker]

Kely,

What are you looking for in Bordeaux? Do you want that older wine experience without having to wait as long? If so then you are likely to be disappointed.

But there are many wines at reasonable prices that are well worth drinking. La Prade and Cap De Faugeres are both quite tasty & keep for several years. D'Aiguihle is a great bargain and may last even longer.

You may want to try the 2005 Tour St. Bonnet. I think it needs time but at the rate my wife is drinking them I will never know. According to wine searcher you can get 375s at Calvert Woodley for less than $10.

My limited experience is that the better bargain Bdx from good years still takes time to evolve and that the bad ones are just bad with or without bottle age.

Second David on his suggestions and may I add Puygueraud.

Kely,

What are you looking for in Bordeaux? Do you want that older wine experience without having to wait as long? If so then you are likely to be disappointed.

But there are many wines at reasonable prices that are well worth drinking. La Prade and Cap De Faugeres are both quite tasty & keep for several years. D'Aiguihle is a great bargain and may last even longer.

I realize that "you can't hurry love, no you'll just have to wait, love don't come easy, it's a game of give and take". So I fully respect that, certainly for the better producers, vintages, etc. that they will come fully in to fruition in their own time but there has to be some expression of the place that is affordable by mortals and ready now (or now abouts), missing the lofty heights though it may be.

I'm expecting something a bit tannic and a "here I am"-ness to it. I guess I expect manly wine that makes me think of leather bound books and dark wooded rooms.

I guess it just strikes me as odd that I've found nice bits of affordable & enjoyable grape everywhere but Bordeaux. I can't afford Domaine de la Romanée-Conti but I've found reasonable priced Burgundies.

I could be it's just not my thing or that the Appellation really does only lend itself to more difficult, longer lived and there more expensive wines. I does seem to me that more than a fair few folks append Bordeaux to their bottles and think that's enough (not that that behavior doesn't exist elsewhere).

[David M. Bueker]

It does seem to me that more than a fair few folks append Bordeaux to their bottles and think that's enough (not that that behavior doesn't exist elsewhere).

I don't think that's the case with the wines that get exported.

Your comment about leather bound books and dark wooded rooms does put me in mind of older wine though, so if that's what you are looking for then you need to source older wine.

Moaning time.
I hate what Bordeaux represents in terms of value these days - AlexR will disagree, but in the US market with filters of importers and trusted retailers, the only producer I've come across that's reasonable in price with a style I like (with restrained fruit and some emphasis on the savoury, earthy elements) is Haut-Bergey which Nick at Table & Vine suggested I buy in the mid $20s. (He was right, the 06 was lovely and gravelly, right up my alley at a price I was happy to pay, but that's been an exception to a rule). Overseas markets in Singapore and Australia are even worse - most bottles under the US$40-equivalent range tend to be crap at worst and acceptable though forgettable at best, and the good wines are brutally priced. (Forget great... those are beyond my wallet.)

As my Bordeaux tastes also run towards wines with less fruit and more developed elements, I've had better luck hunting for random older bottles from places like Flickinger and HDH. YMMV, but I've had good experiences with most older wines from HDH's retail section and occasionally found a nice value here or there particularly from lesser vintages (bought some 94 Lafon Rochet and Pichon Baron recently at $25 and 35 respectively a year+ ago, and some 85 Cantenac Brown recently in a similar range - but those sorts of deals show up there very infrequently).

Right now I've generally given up on it, and almost all my Bordeaux experiences have come either from the fluke marked-down old bottle at a place like HDH, or from people who've opened older bottles for me. For Cabernet with more richness/fruit, I've found Margaret River in WA and some of the cooler/higher altitude areas in Victoria (Aus) to be the best alternative - they're not Bordeaux, but wines like Cullen DM, Vasse Felix and Mt. Langi certainly are really well balanced and excellent wines for my taste (with a lot more restraint and elegance than most Cali Cabs as well - and some wines like Mt. Mary and Cullen could certainly blend in nicely with a lot of old world stuff).

My other go-to area is the Loire these days. Baudry Chinon is wonderful.

Kelly,
You've received some good advice already, but here's another possible approach. Chateau Simard in St. Emilion only releases their wine after years of aging in bottle, the idea (I think) being to release the wine when it's "ready to drink." In any event, the current release of Simard is the '02, although it looks like there's quite a bit of the '98 still on the market. The price is a bit higher than you were shooting for ($30+ a bottle) but you can also find it in half bottle format for $15-20. Simard isn't typically a profound wine, but is usually a decent example of mature right bank Bordeaux. From your comments, it sounds like you're still trying to "get" Bordeaux, and this would be one avenue to seeing what a mature bottle is supposed to taste like.

Mark Lipton

I guess I expect manly wine that makes me think of leather bound books and dark wooded rooms.

Ignore my earlier post. You are not going to get this out of the Tour St. Bonnet in the short term. Maybe with another 5+ years....maybe.

I've had pretty decent luck with some 2000 Bordeaux that I purchased for $25-$35 and that were very drinkable by 2008 (La Tour Figeac (a Merlot and Cabernet Franc blend), Chateau Behere (the 2005 is now up to $50 so no longer such a bargain) and Terre du Lion (said to be from grapes from a Leoville property.) I did like them better after a few years of cellaring. I see the La Tour Figeac is now approaching $40 or $50 in some vintages but was not that much when I purchased six bottle of the 2000 vintage as futures.

Kelly,
From your comments, it sounds like you're still trying to "get" Bordeaux, and this would be one avenue to seeing what a mature bottle is supposed to taste like.

That's it exactly. I just had a minor epiphany, if epiphanies can be minor, that I'm trying to "get" Bordeaux because I have the feeling that I'm supposed to. All the books a novice like myself encounter start off Part 1: France, Chapter 1: Bordeaux. I guess I've been thinking that I'm really supposed to have a handle on that or at least some understanding but maybe that's really not that important. That's it I'm giving up reading.

As far as the wine, I do read these descriptions of the better Bordeaux that make me think I might enjoy what's going on there but that thing might only be resident in 1st Growth wines of advanced age and that's just not where I'll be able to go unless that lottery ticket, a sure and sound financial instrument I am told, comes up a winner. I guess some of my thinking is if I can find a Burgundy that's not $100 but still very enjoyable, why can't the same be true for Bordeaux. It's not like I don't like Cabernet Sauvignon or Merlot on principle.

Salil, I really got a lot out of your post too, so thanks for that. The Cabs I've enjoyed have been mostly CA, though that's not always bargain territory either.

The funny thing in all of this is, while I do really enjoy the intellectual component of wine and the history, taste, viticulture, vinification, and even personalities interest me I do tend to be a fairly hedonistic drinker and in most cases can ignore the rules about what one must like or what is truly representative of this types things. Well other than this Bordeaux thing which I'm sure I'll get over.

The funny thing in all of this is, while I do really enjoy the intellectual component of wine and the history, taste, viticulture, vinification, and even personalities interest me I do tend to be a fairly hedonistic drinker and in most cases can ignore the rules about what one must like or what is truly representative of this types things. Well other than this Bordeaux thing which I'm sure I'll get over.

Hello Kelly. Don't let anybody tell you what you "must like." The only way to understand wine is to get out there and drink it and thereby discover not just wine but your own palate. It is true that some level of experience is needed to fully appreciate some wines, and a healthy dose of reading and book knowledge can be a very useful framework for tasting wine, but you should at the same time try to approach wine with an open mind - because the first wine you taste from a particular region may be an exception to the rules. I like to think of each wine I taste as indicating what a region is capable of rather than defining what it does, although after tasting many examples you do learn the "typicity" of that region. In the context of the learning process, I think your objective should indeed be to "appreciate" Bordeaux, but that is not the same as enjoying it. And BTW, its okay to not like Bordeaux. And if you hang out with the friendly folk here, you won't be criticized for it either. Best Wishes!

Some under $25 Bdx that I have enjoyed (with special recognition of Poujeaux):

Château d'Armailhac
Château de Bellevue
Château Côte de Baleau
Château Fombrauge
Château Lascombes
Château Poujeaux*****

Kelly - I had this same problem 40 years ago. even fairly expensive wines from supposedly great vintages didn't impress. then i found some older wines at reasonable prices and i was hooked. yes, most of them need to age. my own minimum in 10 years for good vintages - maybe a bit less for others - i'm guessing the beautiful 2007's will take less but not lot less. actually no one has mentioned; but in general bordeaux taste ok for the first year after they are bottled and then go underground for a number of years. they then come out of this cocoon slowly as nice mature wines. that said, i just had one that showed very nicely what a young and pleasant bordeaux can be like - the Haut Plantey 2008. I also agree with the vote for Haut Bergey and also would add Lanessan, Chasse Spleen and Labegorce if you can find it. but the main point is that almost none of these will give much in the way of pleasure for at least 10 years from the vintage. in this they are quite unlike most other wines; and are in fact hard to 'get'.

Not the first time this subject has come up...

The great growths are being sold at increasingly outrageous prices.

Alongside those wines are many, many petits châteaux that can hold their head high in terms of value for money with most any other vineyard region.

Apparently these wines don't get imported into the US (where most people don't realize that the great growths account for ***less than 5%*** of total production).

I'm sorry the selection is limited but, please, as a Bordeaux fanatic, believe me when I tell you that there are plenty of fruity, early-maturing, well-made Bordeaux wines at affordable prices.
Come by, any of you, and I'll do my best to prove my point.

Best regards,
Alex R.

Kelly - What we need to do is have an off-line with a mature Bordeaux theme! Over the next few days/weeks I'll see if James Roscoe and I can put one together. Are you game?

One other thing to consider. For some (it was for me), Bordeaux wines can be an acquired taste. You know how you hated mushrooms or broccoli or foie gras as a kid, but then as an adult, you love them?

If you can find a somewhat older Leoville Barton (there has been a good discussion on this board recently of the 1999), maybe that would be a good choice, though it's going to be more than $20.

Every time we take a daytrip to Portland we visit Whole Foods, and usually if not always pick up a Bordeaux at the $12-15 pp. Most of the time, we have never heard of the brand, but these are rotation wines, and we have yet to be disappointed. Can't say the same for any other region.

I was going to say that Ch. Lanessan and Malescasse are good buys in the $20 range but a quick check on wine-searcher.com shows that they are no longer that cheap, especially for the more highly touted vintages (e.g. 2000, 2005, etc.).

Apparently these wines don't get imported into the US (where most people don't realize that the great growths account for ***less than 5%*** of total production).

I'm sorry the selection is limited but, please, as a Bordeaux fanatic, believe me when I tell you that there are plenty of fruity, early-maturing, well-made Bordeaux wines at affordable prices.
Come by, any of you, and I'll do my best to prove my point.

I'm sure those exist in France Alex - yet the same wines when imported and sold through retail in the US are either not at reasonable prices any longer, or they simply do not make it through the filters of retailer/importer selection.

I find that baffling as the wine market in the US does similarly overrepresent (relative to their % of overall production) high end wines from many other regions (for great growths; read Grand Cru Burgs, luxury CDP/Cote-Rotie bottlings, or super-high end Piedmont wines like Giacosa) - yet it's not too hard to find a really solid $20-25 village wine (after the same importing/retailing markups) from Burgundy or a solid Rhone or Nebbiolo d'Alba in the same price ranges.
Not to mention that there are a good number of really quality conscious importers in the US. Skurnik, Rosenthal, Wasserman, Dressner, etc represent cross sections of a lot of different major old world regions, and with some effort, it's easy to get a few really good wines from most of those regions under $25 from their portfolios. Yet there's little from Bordeaux that I've found really competitive at the same price range. I don't think it's an issue with the importers; more a question of pricing. Particularly as a number of wines in the list James Dietz posted no longer cost what they used to a while back. d'Armailhac is now a mid 30s-40s wine, Lascombes is ridiculously priced with the last couple of vintages all $50 or higher and the '05 near $100! The really good buys don't seem to be so any more.

One of the important "tricks" is to find a good wine store with a knowledgable staff! In D.C. that shouldn't be impossible. MacArthur's maybe? Not really familiar with D.C. Ask for advice from someone who looks like they should know, i.e. not a high school kid working in the place on weekends!

It is also useful to learn and remember the characteristics of recent vintages. Decent vintages that just happen to be on the light side can be perfect, as they usually won't have the hype attached to them, and they will tend to drink well young! I've had some very nice '99s for instance. Haven;t really been following recent vintages as my cellar is full of stuff and my credit cards are full too!!

For cheaper bottles, look for very good to great vintages too. Lesser wines in 2000, for instance, weren't much more expensive than any other vintage, as no one is lining up to pay higher prices for wines without a famous name. But they can be very good QPR in these vintages.

Some thoughts...

And another thing!

...decant all young Bordeaux for at least an hour, two is probably better, and adjust the serving temperature - i.e. too cold will bring out the acid and tannins, too warm and the wine will get soft and unfocussed.

What nobody is telling you is rule #1, "YOU DON'T JUST OPEN A BOTTLE OF BORDEAUX"!!! A basic rule of thumb is, "you need to decant Bordeaux". This for two reasons, one, it is very stylish to bottle Bordeaux unfined and unfiltered. I like to use a Pyrex measuring bowl. Standing the bottle up for 2 days (as most recommend) is not necessary, just carefully pour the wine into the bowl, watching carefully with the last 1 ounce. You will easily see the granular size sediment. Discard the last 1/2 oz. of wine. Rinse the bottle out, making sure that you are rid of remaining sediment that was sticking to the side of bottle. Invert bottle to drain and dry. Wine decants (covered in warmer weather, simply placed outside is cool weather) for 1-4 hours, you cannot hurt the wine. Then gentle pour back into the bottle, and the last 1/2 ounce will reveal super-fine sediment, discard. Now you are getting close. Simply set the bottle outside if it is cool, or you are luck enough to live up north, or place in fridge for 20-25 minutes. You are now ready to go. Wait until 30 minutes before you want to serve the wine to place in fridge. Rule #2, "See Rule #1". And there you have it. Aging is somewhat mandatory, though I roughly equate 1 hour of decant with 1 year of aging. I know I'm going to get some feedback on this, but I'm used to it.
If you would like to see if I'm making any sense, find yourself a bottle of '05 Larose-Trintaudon (Haut-Medoc), about $19 and widely available, follow above directions. You will find an enjoyable wine, like no other, that will be even better the next day. If you prefer, you can decant and wait until the next day (kind of like Beef Bourgoigne, or slaw). Serve with roast chicken, lamb, grilled beef, burgers, pork, etc. It is also my choice with cigars, cheddar cheese, olives, etc. Remember to "swirl and sniff", aromatics are what separate the "men from the boys"!
There are also second labels, which are designed to be consumed earlier (cheaper too!). But the decant is still "de rigeure". But this could be another article.
Don't give up, these are the "most important wines in the world", and @ 13% ABV some of the most enjoyable.
Hope this wasn't too long, but I'm glad I got it off my chest!