When should I decant these wines

We are doing a small dinner( Just the 10 of us) and will be serving the following wine:

Chateaunufe du Pape Les Cailloux 2005 Cuvee Centenaire
Hermitage Domaine Jean Louis Chave 2005
Cote Rotie Ogier 2004

How many hours prior to service should I decant?

As a side question Will I be OK serving these wines in the Vinum Cabernet glass # 6416

Gary

Gary, Hi.....


When it comes to the USA I am in a vast minority, but when it comes to France, I seem to have a soul French enough to ask "why decant them at all"?

My own French-oriented direction would be to simply open each of the bottles about 1 1/2 hours before serving, then to pour directly so that diners can follow the wines as they open in their glasses.

But then again, ca, c'est moi and others will surely disagree.

Best
Rogov

IMHO those are all much to young to be showing their best, particularly the Chave, and need all the air they can get from early decanting, say 3-4 hours. The youngest Hermitage (not Chave) from my cellar which I have opened recently is from 1997, a forward year, and a Côte Rôtie from 1998. I have opened some CndP from 2000.

Gary, Hi.....


When it comes to the USA I am in a vast minority, but when it comes to France, I seem to have a soul French enough to ask "why decant them at all"?

My own French-oriented direction would be to simply open each of the bottles about 1 1/2 hours before serving, then to pour directly so that diners can follow the wines as they open in their glasses.

But then again, ca, c'est moi and others will surely disagree.

Best
Rogov

Hi Rogov,

It's nice to be able to agree with you, finally, about matters of sensuality; I think we concur on the bigger picture, which is that there is no bigger picture—if not, that is fine.

Whether to decant or not is largely a matter of incidental personal preference. Wine will air enough in the glass if you drink it leisurely. I never decant, unless I make the horrible mistake of waking a colic baby. Psychologically, putting a great wine into a nameless vessel is a slap at aristocratic snobbishness, which is not my wont.

Best,

Covert

P.S. Speaking of finally with my name following, it reminds me of something I just found very cool. My new employer, which is a Chinese company (I am the only Westerner in it), gave me my Chinese name for the Chinese side of my business card. As you probably know, if there is no existing word in Chinese, they take the closest homophone in Chinese and apply its character or characters to make the new word. The traditional characters in Chinese for my name sound just happen to mean, "Open Like the Ocean." Yin and Yang with a mere flip-over.

[David M. Bueker]

Ah Covert...decanting is not a slap at anything, but rather an attempt to help a wine show its best. A nice decanter is also a lovely way to serve a great wine. That said there are time when decanting can do more harm than good (with some Bordeaux it goes into a shell with too much air).

But to the wines at hand, I would not decant the Chateauneuf but rather let it open in the glass. The Chave needs air, as a 2004 opened the other night by Salil proved - it changed and improved based on the substantial air. I would expect similar results on the Ogier.

Ah Covert...decanting is not a slap at anything, but rather an attempt to help a wine show its best. A nice decanter is also a lovely way to serve a great wine. That said there are time when decanting can do more harm than good (with some Bordeaux it goes into a shell with too much air)

If I didn't, and I guess I didn't (I can't look at what I said as I write); I should have said to me, not in fact. I was talking about how decanting effects me, and only me, but expressed my opinion as a fact, I guess, by mistake. And I pretty much only drink Bordeaux, which means I don't even have an opinion about what even I should do with wines from other regions, if I ever deigned to drink them routinely.

I think we concur on the bigger picture, which is that there is no bigger picture—if not, that is fine.

Covert, Hi....

We may be getting a bit off-topic but that happens. As to the bigger picture, I have always had a special place in both head and heart for Malevich's White on White.

Best
Rogov

Somehow, with 10 people, I would be more inclined to decant both 2005 Chave Hermitage and the 2004 Ogier Cote Rotie, as there may not be enough pours to see how these may develop with time.

The 2005 Chave Hermitage rouge that we had in a tasting last year was extremely austere and backward, and some of us concluded that some decanting might have helped soften up the wine.

I prefer to not decant older mature wines, when I can plan ahead and pull the cork about 5 or 6 hours ahead of time and let it develop slowly (which I think is the absolute best), and then additionally follow the wine over the course of several hours, as I drink it all by myself! But with young wines this approach takes a LONG time. Like pull the corks the NIGHT BEFORE and take out a small taste to enlarge the surface area to silver dollar size.

Like Ramon, I think with 10 people attending, you won't have time to leisurely watch a bottle develop over the course of several hours! So you have to aim at it being "on form" when it's poured, as that is going to be the end of it! I would pull the corks as early as possible, and enlarge the surface area a bit as I descrubed, and then plan to decant before the meal, maybe two hours or even more beforehand, considering that they are young Rhones. This time might not be enough on its own possibly, but if you additionally pull the corks very early, the combination might work well?

[quote="Paul Savage"]I prefer to not decant older mature wines, when I can plan ahead and pull the cork about 5 or 6 hours ahead of time and let it develop slowly...


Hey Paul, that's the Audouze method you mentioned in an earlier post. I am having a party of my own this coming weekend and We're going to be sampling some 1986 wines, specifically Sociando Mallet, L'Arrosee, Laurel Glen, and Phelps Insignia, with a wild card 1982 Chateau Montelena thrown in for good measure. All have been well stored and I am guessing that you would recommend this method for these wines, am I correct? Tom

[Jenise]

Like Ramon, I think with 10 people attending, you won't have time to leisurely watch a bottle develop over the course of several hours! So you have to aim at it being "on form" when it's poured, as that is going to be the end of it! I would pull the corks as early as possible, and enlarge the surface area a bit as I descrubed, and then plan to decant before the meal, maybe two hours or even more beforehand, considering that they are young Rhones. This time might not be enough on its own possibly, but if you additionally pull the corks very early, the combination might work well?

I'm with Ramon and Paul. You're committing infanticide as it is, so prepping the wine to it's best will be crucial. If this were my gig I'd pull the corks in the morning, decant all three, and pour a shallow decoy glass of each. I'd then start tasting from the decoy glasses to monitor their progress over the next 30 minutes and use that information to make a decision about how much time each one needs. I would even be tempted to start this process as much as three days earlier, at least with the Chave.

Covert--what Gary's doing is a long wine dinner and this is the main course. Several prior courses will each have their own wines.

Understanding that temp. is critical for all wine service and that I do not have an area to keep 3 decanters of red at the correct temp. what do you think about double decanting all three, recorking them ( I make wine so I have a corking machine) and then putting them back in the wine cave until service?

Gary

Gary,

No real need to re-cork, as double-decanting will introduce quite a bit of oxygen from the pourings. With youngish Rhones this procedure should be OK, just do it at least a couple jours in advance.

Tom V.,

Regarding your '86s - just remenber that these are still pretty young! So they will likely prefer 8 - 10 hours (if not more!) of the "Audouze" slow oxygenation treatment. I would also take out a small initial taste to enlarge the surface area a bit (i.e. so the fills aren't in the neck, at least!)

A small dinner means you do not want to be nursing the wine for several hours while it opens. Despite Daniel's sentimental attitude toward French wine, in this case the youth of the wines and the brevity of the meal suggest advance decanting.

I'd give the CDP about 2 hours, the Chave about 4 hours, the Ogier about 90 minutes. Of course, it would be better for you to open the bottles in the morning, taste a small amount of each, and then base decanting time on that. It could be that some bottles would like 6 hours and others 60 minutes. You should make the call using empirical data, not formulas.

I've beaten on Paul re: Audouze. Rest assured - it is not intended for young wines. Please ignore his advice.

Tom V.,

Regarding your '86s - just remenber that these are still pretty young! So they will likely prefer 8 - 10 hours (if not more!) of the "Audouze" slow oxygenation treatment. I would also take out a small initial taste to enlarge the surface area a bit (i.e. so the fills aren't in the neck, at least!)

Wow, surprised to hear you describe these wines as being still pretty young! I guess you mean in terms of "Audouzizing" them. Anyway, that's how I plan to do it, open them first thing in the am and take out just a bit from each bottle.
Last time I entertained this same group of folks we did some 1985 Cali CS's and Bordeaux. I opened them only about an hour before and didn't decant them and I felt they didn't show at their best. So I'm definitely ready to try a new approach.

Tom,

Yeah, the thought that '86s are still young kind of amuses me too! But with an attempt to slow oxygenate a wine a la Monsieur Audouze, you have to take into account the body and tannins of the wine. Certainly, most '86 Bordeaux are still very sturdy wines today. And the Cal Cabs have plenty of body. It's easier with Burgs, as Pinot tends to have much less body and tannin than Cabs, in general.

If you pull the corks very early, and take a small taste of a wine, you will get a feel for what you are dealing with. You can repeat the small taste routine at some later point too, exactly when depending on the age and style of wine, to see if you may have to decant, or otherwise nudge the process along. I sometime pour out a half glass and gently pour back into the bottle, for instance, to introduce a bit more oxygen, but less than a decanting would introduce. You may have to do this with your Cabs, or even decant them, if with say an hour to go, they still seem "unready".

Psychologically, putting a great wine into a nameless vessel is a slap at aristocratic snobbishness, which is not my wont.

My practice, when I decant, is to leave the empty bottle next to the decanter on the table. That way folks can see all the care to about the wine and I can show off my boron-based Crystal decanters.

Tom,



I sometime pour out a half glass and gently pour back into the bottle, for instance, to introduce a bit more oxygen, but less than a decanting would introduce. You may have to do this with your Cabs, or even decant them, if with say an hour to go, they still seem "unready".

Hey Paul, You were right on with this, we had a great party, I let the wines " Audouze" for 6 hours pouring out a little of each to increase the surface area to about the size of a silver dollar. We did them blind and I provided some notes taken from Parker, WS and Cellar Tracker. Of the three gents present my brother got all 5 wines correct and myself and our other guest got three out of five. The ladies just enjoyed the vino.

As far as the airing was concerned, we went through each of the wines pouring what I judged to be half the bottle and then went back later and did it again. The second time around the wines were definitely more open and showed better. Next time I will pour out a glass and then pour it back as you suggested. I've always had a bias towards not giving my wines too much air fearing that I'd miss the best of them. Now I can see that I'll have to consider this on a wine by wine basis since obviously, as with these wines, significant airing is sometimes the way to go!

We didn't write down detailed notes. All the wines were very enjoyable examples of well aged ageable reds. The WOTD was the '86 Phelps Insignia which everyone instantly picked out because of the eucalyptus in the nose which had been described in some of the notes. Second was the Montelena. I think it likely that the Laurel Glen, L'arrosee and Sociando Mallet may have shown better with more airing. Maybe I'll just have to do it again and see!

Tom,

Glad you enjoyed the wines! "Ideal" aeration is a tricky thing, as it depends on the type of wine, its age, its style, its "size". etc. Over time you build up some data points and your intuition about what to do improves! As a general rule, I think the best route is to pull the corks about 6 hours ahead of time and take a small taste of the wine to see what you are dealing with. Even a very old, fragile wine will still like the hours with the cork pulled (i.e. it will do no harm in any case). If the wines are fairly robust, maybe take another small taste with 2 hours to go, and based on how they show then, decide if the 2 hours more time should be enough, or if a gentle nudge is needed (i.e. pour out a half glass and gently pour back in), or if some more aggressive treatment is called for, like a full decant.

When I don't plan ahead enough, I will decant about 1/4 or 1/5 of the bottle an hour or two beforehand, and work on that with dinner first, then turn to the undecanted part later (and it invariably is better! ). With part of the bottle poured out the wine seems to aerate in the bottle somewhat faster (though it is till slow and gentle). I suppose it is the combination of increased surface area and less volume of wine....

[quote="Paul Savage"]Tom,

" As a general rule, I think the best route is to pull the corks about 6 hours ahead of time and take a small taste of the wine to see what you are dealing with. Even a very old, fragile wine will still like the hours with the cork pulled (i.e. it will do no harm in any case). If the wines are fairly robust, maybe take another small taste with 2 hours to go, and based on how they show then, decide if the 2 hours more time should be enough, or if a gentle nudge is needed (i.e. pour out a half glass and gently pour back in), or if some more aggressive treatment is called for, like a full decant."



Judging by the way our tasting dinner went, the above sounds like the way to go, and I'm sure as you say, the more you do it the more it comes together. Definitely going to pop the cork on the 1986 Meyney we're having on Easter 6 hours ahead. The other wine we'll be having is a 1973 Rioja 904. This wine is all about the nose and I wonder if I might be better off just popping and pouring it. I've had older riojas in the past that have faded not too long after opening.

Tom,
I haven't experimented with Riojas recently, but it would be hard to believe that they would behave any differently than other wines. When I hear someone say an older wine faded I wonder if it is the "fleeting fruitiness" that one sometimes encounters when an older bottle is first opened, that rather quickly disappears as the wine starts to breathe. I've always felt that this was not a "true" expression of the mature wine, as something deeper and more complex develops with gentle aeration, and this seems to me to be the real essence of the wine. Of course, one of the problems with decanting a very old wine is that one may introduce too much oxygen and the softening one usually associates with aeration can be overdone, resulting in something too soft and flabby, or else the wine shows more signs of oxidation in a negative sense. All this is why I prefer to not decant a mature wine, but then, some, like '86 Bordeaux in general, are so structured yet, that it takes a long time for anything to happen if you just pull the cork (even if you enlarge the surface area a bit by taking a small initial taste). With your '86 Meyney, for instance, I would definitely plan to have to pour out a half glass or so and gently pour back into the bottle, maybe two hours before serving time, to introduce a bit more oxygen and mixing of the wine. But I do think that slow and gentle is better, it's just a question of allowing enough time, or modifying the procedure a bit when necessary. Don't forget to keep the serving temperature gently cool too - not 70F room temperature.

Tom,
"I haven't experimented with Riojas recently, but it would be hard to believe that they would behave any differently than other wines. When I hear someone say an older wine faded I wonder if it is the "fleeting fruitiness" that one sometimes encounters when an older bottle is first opened, that rather quickly disappears as the wine starts to breathe. I've always felt that this was not a "true" expression of the mature wine, as something deeper and more complex develops with gentle aeration, and this seems to me to be the real essence of the wine."

That's interesting Paul. As I've had this Rioja in the past and thus have a frame of reference, and as I also have several more bottles in my cellar, this is a good one to experiment with. I am definitely going to "gently aerate" it for 6 hours in bottle and see how it does. As for the '86 Meyney I'll pop it 6 hours before and then taste it again 2 hours before serving to decide whether or not to pour out and return the 1/2 glass or so to the bottle. If it is similar to the '86 L'arrosee & '86 Sociando Mallet that we drank a couple of weeks ago it's going to need it!