WTN: February ousted

Before I realized it, February left me, and I, it. There's a reason this month is so short, despite being very presidential.

BioVio, Riviera Ligure di Ponente, Vermentino di Albenga, 2008
I believe this might have been my first 2008 wine. Color is a pretty greenish-grey light gold with a tingly herbal nose. Lots of Mennen aftershave fills the palate, with herbally ripe fruit. A bit pinot grigio-like, finishes soft. 13% B/B+

Tempier, Bandol, 1998
Bright cherry red colored. A muted nose, not sure from still being asleep or dumbstruck at being opened in the dead of winter. You can still make out the sweatsox and unopened, nighttime flowers. With air (lots of it, as in 'the next day'), this opens up to be an elegant mourvedre, despite having very tough nail-like tannins. There's tar, vine twig, campfire smoke, but also some cooked fruit compote as well. This is one wine that drinks better the second day than the first. B+

St. Cosme, Cote Rotie, 1998
Thankfully, my last and final bottle. But I repeat myself. Never wasting my money on this crap again, no matter how cheap it is, and it isn't.

Vincent Dauvissat, Chablis, 'les Sechet', 2002
Ahh...finally: real. good. wine. Salty lemon drop bonbons on the bright nose. Beautifully rendered chardonnay with salty-mineral infused lemon rind with the lightish touch of oaken vanilla. With further airing, the oaken notes fade and are replaced by talcum powder and candlewax. Slightly short finish, but I'm not complaining. This is a delicate wash of a wine, like dipping your hands in a bowl of cool lemon-water on a warm summer's day. Lovely. A-/B+

Domaine Bru-Bache, Jurancon, 'lEminende', 2001
Medium gold color with an almost green Chartreuse cast. Spring flowers and wood ear fungus on the nose. Sweet-sour dimension to the palate creating a nice interplay of flavors among the notes of kumquat and quince, and a finish of freshly burnt sugar with lemongrass, slight bitter note on the end. Interesting melange of flavors and not heavy, despite being 14% alcohol. The Mansengs can invite me to dinner anytime! A-

[David M. Bueker]

And what is your issue with the St. Cosme?

And what is your issue with the St. Cosme?

To quote my own response from another place:
(note that these are the 6 TIMES I've had Saint Cosme wines, with the exception of a Little James Basket Press from the early 90's which I remember liking)

3 bottles of the 1998: all brooding masses of unelegant syrah, and wood. 3 bottles of their 2001, all having 'problems', mostly volatile acidity, that I couldn't even finish an opened bottle. So, yeah, I don't like these wines and ever so glad they are out of my cellar. Like a reeking corpse, you want all evidence removed.

That's interesting. The only St. Cosme I ever tasted was a 2002 Cote Rotie. It came highly recommended from a shop owner whose taste I respect a lot and he was right. No where near your description of either the 1998 or 2001. I have always intended to try a "better vintage" but never got around to it. Sounds like maybe the lesser vintage was a better wine.

[David M. Bueker]

I've had the 1998 version & liked it though I felt it needed a lot of time. That said, I am tolerant of oak in Cote Rotie (disclaimer - I actually enjoy Guigal's Cote Roties up to and including the La Las), so my mileage clearly varies.

To quote my own response from another place:
(note that these are the 6 TIMES I've had Saint Cosme wines, with the exception of a Little James Basket Press from the early 90's which I remember liking)

3 bottles of the 1998: all brooding masses of unelegant syrah, and wood. 3 bottles of their 2001, all having 'problems', mostly volatile acidity, that I couldn't even finish an opened bottle. So, yeah, I don't like these wines and ever so glad they are out of my cellar. Like a reeking corpse, you want all evidence removed.

Sounds like you're talking about the Cote-Rotie, which I've never had. I've had the Gigondas in several vintages and like it quite a lot. I wonder if those who have had both Northern and Southern Rhone wines from St. Cosme see a generalizable difference in winemaking.
Charles

To quote my own response from another place:
(note that these are the 6 TIMES I've had Saint Cosme wines, with the exception of a Little James Basket Press from the early 90's which I remember liking)

3 bottles of the 1998: all brooding masses of unelegant syrah, and wood. 3 bottles of their 2001, all having 'problems', mostly volatile acidity, that I couldn't even finish an opened bottle. So, yeah, I don't like these wines and ever so glad they are out of my cellar. Like a reeking corpse, you want all evidence removed.

Sounds like you're talking about the Cote-Rotie, which I've never had. I've had the Gigondas in several vintages and like it quite a lot. I wonder if those who have had both Northern and Southern Rhone wines from St. Cosme see a generalizable difference in winemaking.
Charles

Charles,
I believe that Jonathan Loesberg commented elsewhere that Mark's experiences with the Côte-Rôtie mirror his own with the Gigondas. Keep in mind, though, that he -- like me -- prefers S Rhone wines in a traditional vein: no new oak, barrique aging or sur-maturité. Since he posts here occasionally, I should probably let him speak for himself, though.

Mark Lipton

[David M. Bueker]

Wow...the 1998, 1999, 2000 and 2001 St. Cosme Gigondas were (and still are) pretty darned good.

And looking (or is that lurking) it's Jeff Grossman who pans the Gigondas, not Jonathan.

Apropos comments, Mark.

Add that Gigondas is 'home turf" for St. Cosme---literally so. Where the winery is, where his vineyards are, and where the wine is made. Also what St. Cosme has always, justly, prided itself on.

That said, Monsieur le Proprietaire would be the firs to tell you that the two different wines are miles apart stylistically, philosophically, and in every other way.

And I too hope the good Professor shows up on this one.

To quote my own response from another place:
(note that these are the 6 TIMES I've had Saint Cosme wines, with the exception of a Little James Basket Press from the early 90's which I remember liking)

3 bottles of the 1998: all brooding masses of unelegant syrah, and wood. 3 bottles of their 2001, all having 'problems', mostly volatile acidity, that I couldn't even finish an opened bottle. So, yeah, I don't like these wines and ever so glad they are out of my cellar. Like a reeking corpse, you want all evidence removed.

Sounds like you're talking about the Cote-Rotie, which I've never had. I've had the Gigondas in several vintages and like it quite a lot. I wonder if those who have had both Northern and Southern Rhone wines from St. Cosme see a generalizable difference in winemaking.
Charles

Charles,
I believe that Jonathan Loesberg commented elsewhere that Mark's experiences with the Côte-Rôtie mirror his own with the Gigondas. Keep in mind, though, that he -- like me -- prefers S Rhone wines in a traditional vein: no new oak, barrique aging or sur-maturité. Since he posts here occasionally, I should probably let him speak for himself, though.

Mark Lipton

Mark,
I think of myself as pretty much a tradionalist too.
Even in my smaller experience with the Valbelle, of which I was suspicious because of the oak treatment, it integrated well over time.

2000 Château de Saint-Cosme Gigondas - France, Rhône, Southern Rhône, Gigondas (2/20/2010)
Drinking well; no hurry
2004 Château de Saint-Cosme Gigondas - France, Rhône, Southern Rhône, Gigondas (3/3/2009)
Less refined than previous bottles. Good dollop of tannins, albeit not real hard. Prominent nose and palate iron component. After some time in glass black pepper emerges. The fruit takes a back seat, not the fleshy raspberry of previous bottles, but there's plenty there. Not quite sure what to make of where this is now.
2000 Château de Saint-Cosme Gigondas - France, Rhône, Southern Rhône, Gigondas (10/6/2008)
The darker side of grenache, in color and in flavors with earthiness and cigar leaf moe than red berrires. Still pretty tannic
1998 Château de Saint-Cosme Gigondas Valbelle - France, Rhône, Southern Rhône, Gigondas (6/1/2008)
Very lovely large-framed grenache. Oak not at all intrusive. Beginning to show some maturity in color and palate; drink now aor over 5 years depending on what you prefer.
2004 Château de Saint-Cosme Gigondas - France, Rhône, Southern Rhône, Gigondas (9/16/2007)
Good Dollop of SRhone fruit but refined rather than rustic, good balance. Nice wine, drinking well now or over a few years. Interestingly, I had another glass after a dessert of raspberries, and the wine brought the taste of raspberries alive in my mouth in a most synergistic way. Will try raspberries macerated in it next time.
1998 Château de Saint-Cosme Gigondas Valbelle - France, Rhône, Southern Rhône, Gigondas (4/17/2006)
Saigon in Millis. Still dark, plenty of tannin though not punishing. Big intense, dark red frruits, still quite primary. Oak not intrusive. Enjoyable with decanting, but promises more.

Charles

And looking (or is that lurking) it's Jeff Grossman who pans the Gigondas, not Jonathan.

Erk! So it was, David. The same comments apply to Jeff, too, though, so maybe I'm off the hook. And the Prof has disparaged recent St Cosme offerings in another thread ("Total Disgust" FYI).

Mark Lipton

[David M. Bueker]

Well I can say that I had the 2005 Gigondas Valbelle in London a year or so ago & found it rather dark & impenetrable. It was not overly oaky though, and I do not like oak in Southern Rhones (versus my tolerance in their northern brethren).

Well I can say that I had the 2005 Gigondas Valbelle in London a year or so ago & found it rather dark & impenetrable. It was not overly oaky though, and I do not like oak in Southern Rhones (versus my tolerance in their northern brethren).

Interesting dichotomy, David. I don't particularly care for new oak in either, though I'm more sensitive to it in Syrah. On the whole, the more aromatic the grape, the more new oak seems to confound my appreciation. YMMV, of course.

Mark Lipton

Well I can say that I had the 2005 Gigondas Valbelle in London a year or so ago & found it rather dark & impenetrable. It was not overly oaky though, and I do not like oak in Southern Rhones (versus my tolerance in their northern brethren).

Interesting dichotomy, David. I don't particularly care for new oak in either, though I'm more sensitive to it in Syrah. On the whole, the more aromatic the grape, the more new oak seems to confound my appreciation. YMMV, of course.

Mark Lipton

I don't care for new oak in either Northern Or Southern Rhones (where sometimes the gloss of grenache can hide it), either, but I'm still trying to determine -- with pure syrah, anyway -- the differences between tannins from the grape and those contributed by oak. From other discussions in other places, there was mention that it can be difficult to properly discern the addtion that oak gives compared to what is already in the syrah skins.

Well I can say that I had the 2005 Gigondas Valbelle in London a year or so ago & found it rather dark & impenetrable. It was not overly oaky though, and I do not like oak in Southern Rhones (versus my tolerance in their northern brethren).

Interesting dichotomy, David. I don't particularly care for new oak in either, though I'm more sensitive to it in Syrah. On the whole, the more aromatic the grape, the more new oak seems to confound my appreciation. YMMV, of course.

Mark Lipton

I don't care for new oak in either Northern Or Southern Rhones (where sometimes the gloss of grenache can hide it), either, but I'm still trying to determine -- with pure syrah, anyway -- the differences between tannins from the grape and those contributed by oak. From other discussions in other places, there was mention that it can be difficult to properly discern the addtion that oak gives compared to what is already in the syrah skins.

And let's make it even more difficult, Mark.

It is not uncommon these days for many winemakers to judiciously (or not so judiciously) add dried grape tannins to the blend before bottling. Tends to soften up the wine a bit, take some of the harsh edge of the initial existing tannins, I'm told.

So put that in your discernings.

[David M. Bueker]

I just never seem to be able to tolerate new oak on Grenache. I bought a few modernista CNdP back around '98-'01, and most of them have been horrid to my taste. All I get is splinters. Syrah handles it better for me.

[David M. Bueker]

It is not uncommon these days for many winemakers to judiciously (or not so judiciously) add dried grape tannins to the blend before bottling. Tends to soften up the wine a bit, take some of the harsh edge of the initial existing tannins, I'm told.

Which winemakers? Names please.

Well I can say that I had the 2005 Gigondas Valbelle in London a year or so ago & found it rather dark & impenetrable. It was not overly oaky though, and I do not like oak in Southern Rhones (versus my tolerance in their northern brethren).

As you can see from my brief notes, in terms of (im)penetrability the 98 Valbelle was drinking much better at 10 yrs than at 8, and didn't find the oak intrusive at either go. And as you know, I'm hardly a fan of overt oak.

I did buy some of the 2005 Valbelle upon finding it for $19, but haven't thought to try it for another couple of years.
Charles

It is not uncommon these days for many winemakers to judiciously (or not so judiciously) add dried grape tannins to the blend before bottling. Tends to soften up the wine a bit, take some of the harsh edge of the initial existing tannins, I'm told.

Which winemakers? Names please.

Stop this campaign of hate!

Mark L wrote;
Interesting dichotomy, David. I don't particularly care for new oak in either, though I'm more sensitive to it in Syrah. On the whole, the more aromatic the grape, the more new oak seems to confound my appreciation. YMMV, of course.

I don’t know if I would consider Syrah an aromatic grape variety, although it does have the ability to produce intense flavorful wines. Whether or not Syrah can handle the oak or not I think depends a lot on the “ripeness and health” level of the fruit at harvest and the techniques used to produce the wine. If the quality of the fruit warrants the production of a “fruit-forward” wine (by this I mean, a de-stemmed whole berry, maybe partial crush (small percentage), (if the stems are “ripe” enough) maybe add a few whole clusters, cold soak or pre-fermentation maceration, “cool” fermentation), you might not want to put this particular batch of wine in a “new” oak barrel (for an extended period of time anyway). Possibly over “oaking” it and undoing all that was done in the first place. On the other hand if the quality of the fruit warrants the production of a more “power-full” wine (by this I mean a full crush, partial stems included, cold soak or pre-fermentation maceration, “hot” fermentation, post-fermentation or extended maceration) this batch of wine might be more suited to see some time (or even an extended period of time) in a “new” oak barrel.
Every winemaker has his or her own philosophy when it comes to oak regimes (type of oak, size of oak barrel, “old” or “new”, cooper, etc). It’s common to hear that winemakers use a given percentage of “new” barrels and a given percentage of “older” (more neutral) barrels. This does not necessarily mean that the “ initial” batch of wine was fermented using the same techniques or even if the batch of grapes were harvested at the same exact time.

Salute