'tradition' on french wine labels

i've noticed more and more labels carrying the word 'tradition' for certain cuvee's - even champagne. does anyone know anything about this. i mean it seems to mean that this cuve is not 'modern'; i.e. not oaky or overripe or whatever. but is there something semi-official about all this; or did it start somewhere and just spread?

Not official, does not mean anything, may still involve oak, is primarily about marketing to vague notions of 'tradition' that are supposedly attractive to consumers, both domestically and abroad.

[David M. Bueker]

Meaningless. Some producers do use it to denote a more old school cuvee, but there is no specific meaning.

I agree with David.

"Tradition" on a label is meaningless.

Consider the word "réserve".
With French wine, this often has the exact opposite meaning from California: it is the *basic* cuvée.
"Réserve du Patron" in a restaurant, for instance, is the entry level wine.

"Vieilli en fûts de chêne" is another one to watch out for.
What percentage of the wine needs to be oak-aged to qualify?

I was recently told in Burgundy that "veillies vignes" *does* have a legal meaning, but I unfortunately did not note down the minimum age that was mentioned.

Best regards,
Alex R.

I was recently told in Burgundy that "veillies vignes" *does* have a legal meaning

First I have heard of that. Maybe a new thing.

While not legally defined, a lot of these terms do have meaning within a product range of a respectable producer - even if all it does is hint at the relative differences in cuvées.

Hugel use Tradition - it is just the term they use for their middling varietal cuvée. The range is Classic, Tradition, Jubilee.

[David M. Bueker]

Alex,

I have heard (most recently from an interview with Allan Meadows - the Burghound) that VV is undefined.

See also the Cahors Open Mike, where IIRC the local producers are trying to form a loose framework for the use of tradition and other terms.

... and of course there's the worldwide use of Methode Traditionelle to denote champagne method (as Methode Champenois can't be used outside the region).

Moving to Australia and NZ, there are producers who extend a vineyard name into a multi-vineyard blend - e.g. Penfolds Kalimna Bin 28 Shiraz, Jacob's Creek Steingarten and Te Mata Coleraine / Awatea / Elston. All good wines, but all trading on a vineyard name when the wines no longer come exclusively from that vineyard. Then there are those wineries with the region in their name (notably some Yarra valley producers with 'Yarra' in their name) who make and sell wines that weren't produced in the region.

Old Vines / Vielles Vignes ought to be more tightly defined (amongst other aspects - perhaps including 'reserve'), as marketing depts given an inch, will happily steal a mile.

regards

Ian

So these terms are just the wine world's equivalent of "organic"?

[David M. Bueker]

Actually Robert, organic is much more tightly controlled than any of the terms discussed above.

David,

It looks like you are right. I was led to believe something that was not true (vieilles vignes).

As for the wording "organic" on French wines labels, this is coming under increasing criticism.
http://www.bloc.com/article/alimentatio ... aptee.html
In fact, what counts is ONLY the way the grapes are grown, which is non-sensical if all sorts of chemicals are added duing winemaking!

Organic wines are increasingly popluar in Europe.
I feel that if a wine is good, and organic, I'm a happy camper. But if I have to choose between one of those two qualities, I prefer that it be good first.

In terms of communication, increasing numbers of French estates are stressing the introduction of environmentally-friendly methods. Are consumers sensitive to such things in the US?

There is also a halfway house that is subject to no quality label or certification: "agriculture/viticulture raisonnée".
This translates as "sustainable".
And it means a different thing to different people...

All the best,
Alex R.

[David M. Bueker]

As for the wording "organic" on French wines labels, this is coming under increasing criticism.
http://www.bloc.com/article/alimentatio ... aptee.html
In fact, what counts is ONLY the way the grapes are grown, which is non-sensical if all sorts of chemicals are added duing winemaking!

Which chemicals? SO2? Organic. People may not like it, but it's organic (even qualifies in biodynamics, as does copper). Ascorbic acid can be organic too.

The definition with regard to wine is still very iffy...

The substances you cite are commonly used and, indeed, are authorized.

But some people, who do not necessarily live in the same world as you and I, are offended still by the thought...

Natural is not always best when it comes to wine...

All the best,
Alex

[David M. Bueker]

The definition with regard to wine is still very iffy...

The substances you cite are commonly used and, indeed, are authorized.

But some people, who do not necessarily live in the same world as you and I, are offended still by the thought...

Natural is not always best when it comes to wine...

All the best,
Alex

agreed

With regard to the "organic" issue.......EU specifications as well as those in Israel demand that if grapes are grown organically but the wine does not meet those qualifications because of treatment at the winery, it is legitimate to write on the label that the wines come from an "Organic Vineyard".

Perhaps not as nonsensical as it seems for although raising grapes organically is more dangerous and more expensive it does go a long way in eliminating various viruses from the vines. More than that, in several cases I have tasted wines from parallel portions of the same vineyard, some portions organic, others only environmentally friendly, both wines harvested give or take a day of each other and made by precisely the same methodology. One can feel the difference and the difference is in favor of the organic. And believe me, I'm usually quite a skeptic when it comes to organic produce.

With regard to "tradition"...as others have said there is simply no regulation on this one. Something akin to "reserve", "special reserve", "vintner's choice", or if you like as is the case with one winery in Israel (a quite good one it must be said) "royal reserve".

With re vieilles vignes, more a question of integrity than law. Most in Alsace will not label wines as vieilles vignes unless the grapes come from vines more than 50 years old; in Burgundy more discretionary, 30-50 years old. In Israel anything over 25 years is considered vieilles vignes but the title is not used by most unless the vines are 30 years old or older. (I am not familiar with the policies in the USA).

As a point of curiosity, the now aborning wine industry in China has declared that no vines shall be entitled to be called vieilles vignes until the vines have attained 32 years of age.

Best
Rogov

Hi Rogov,

Your wrote:
"EU specifications as well as those in Israel demand that if grapes are grown organically but the wine does not meet those qualifications because of treatment at the winery, it is legitimate to write on the label that the wines come from an "Organic Vineyard".

This is, to say the least, very confusing to consumers...

Please, what treatment at the winery disqualifies a wine from being called organic?

All the best,
Alex

Alex, Hi.....


Among the factors that may disqualify a wine as being considered organic:

1. In the USA standard wines can contain up to 350 ppm of sulfites. Sulfites can be added to organic wines but the total sulfite content in a certified wine cannot exceed 100 ppm. Throughout the EU that is even less – 40 ppm which is considered a level below which most people will show any allergic reaction. One organization, the Minnesota based Organic Consumers Association insists that a wine cannot attain their certification unless it contains less than 20 ppm of sulfites.

2. Fining and filtration levels can impact on whether a wine is considered organic. Only organic materials can be used for fining and over-filtration is frowned upon as is the use of reverse osmosis. Several examples with regard to fining - Egg whites and Casein are widely accepted as fining agents but must come from organic eggs and milk products; bentonite is acceptable; as is isinglass. Polymer chemicals are not allowed in organic wines.

3. At least until now almost all bodies agree that wines made from genetically modified grapes cannot be used in the production of organic wines even if the vineyards are organic in principle.

4. The use of all artificial chemicals (that is to say, entirely man-made) is forbidden. The best examples of course is the use of such abominations as mega-purple and liquid tannins.

Note please that I am not saying that I agree with or support all of these ideas. Simply reporting them.

Best
Rogov

Actually Robert, organic is much more tightly controlled than any of the terms discussed above.

I think a more applicable term would be "lite", which doesn't seem to be regulated, nor to mean much of anything really.

[David M. Bueker]

Actually Robert, organic is much more tightly controlled than any of the terms discussed above.

I think a more applicable term would be "lite", which doesn't seem to be regulated, nor to mean much of anything really.

It's not even a real word.

To tell you the truth I think the term “Table Wine” is the most tightly regulated and controlled term in the EU. As far as I know (maybe this is not true anymore) no wine imported into a EU state from outside the EU could have the term “Table wine” on the bottle. I guess to some it means more than just “a wine suited for a meal or table”.

As far as the term “tradition” I agree with the others, and like David B, besides denoting “an older school cuvee” or “older recipe” maybe it is a hint to a more “traditional” winemaking techniques such as “field blends” or co-fermentations.

Salute

Please, what treatment at the winery disqualifies a wine from being called organic?

In the EU, as far as I know (I've heard from lots of people but not seen the regs myself) the term organic wine is not legal - organic only applies to agricultural produce. The closest you ever get is wines made from organically grown grapes.

Steve, Hi.....

Correct you be, but there is a fine line and not always a distinct one between and agricultural products, many of the regulations placing wine in the same category as many processed foods (e.g. corn flakes, hamburgers, frankfurters, etc). The label of "organic wine" is now being used quite commonly in Languedoc-Rouissilon and in parts of Veneto.

Best
Rogov

With regard to the word "tradition" on a French wine label, although there is no legal meaning I know of, the term frequently denotes a basic cuvee of wine, as opposed to one of the special cuvees a cellar might make. Although it has no denotation as to process of elevation, "tradition" does signify that this is the cuvee that they consider represents the domaine, as opposed to special cuvees made to represent special qualities. This use is not universal of course.