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WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

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WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by Jenise » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:47 pm

The Dorks of York got together last night to see what would happen with a themeless theme: Bring Anything. Wines were served blind and the order was established by the participants whenever anyone thought their wine would follow another well.

Gabe poured his white first. When I got no'd on Semillon I went straight to Chenin, which was right. A Savennieres, in fact, Domaine Closel-Chateau de Vaults "La Jabousie". Stupidly, I failed to note the vintage, but it was at least five years old. Austere and bone dry, with a nose of dried pear and cheese. Next up was my white: chardonnay was guessed right off the bat but the group could get no further, flummoxed by the juxtaposition of the Chablis-like flinty, steely, petrol stuff with the voluptuous exotic fruits and plenty of strange and wonderful acids. It was guessed to be no older than five years, but in fact it's a 10 year old: 2000 Dalyrmple Chardonnay from Tasmania. Boo hoo, this was my last bottle.

Next up, a red: smokey red fruit, maturing, grenache-y, it seemed obviously a Rhone but in fact it was a non-vintage Les Cretes "Coteau la Tour" Vina de Tavola from Italy with the majority fruit syrah. Once it was unveiled I retasted it to see if I'd missed the acidity so typical of Italian wine but no, it wasn't there. Very good, though.

Now a wine from John: strawberry fruit leather, maple suyrup, oak-ness, dates...merlot? Yes, it had some in it, Spain? Priorat? Yes and yes: 2003 Scala Dei Priorat. Very good and at peak.

Jesse sent the next one around: cloudy, indistinct red fruit, olives, quite a bit of age on it. Too much, I think: it's a 95 Chateau du Trignon from Gigondas.

I decided it was time for one of my reds and passed the 2000 Joguet La Dioterie Cabernet Franc from Chinon. This wine reminded us how rarely we smell a truly perfect nose because perfect this was--hugely aromatic, it just wafted out of the glass and kissed you. Bordeaux was someone's first guess and when that failed Brian jumped in to nail Chinon. Medium red color with orange hue. Cherry red fruit on the nose with a little leather and brown sugar. On the palate, more red fruit with herbs and a smidge of green olive. Outstanding, and absolutely perfect for current drinking (Rahsaan, don't you have this one?), and pretty much everybody's WOTN.

Then came a wine from Allen: promising nose with sassafras and malt, but it otherwise gave no clues and the wine was totally shut down on the palate. Serious tannins. Should be a gorgeous wine some day but it's nowhere close to being drinkable now, and we were all surprised when a Gigondas was unveiled: 2004 Santa Duc Hautes des Garriques.

Out came another baby: Gabe's 2004 Croix de Labrie from St. Emilion. Showed a lot of Bordeaux elements and elegance, but it needs a lot more time.

Here comes something special from Jesse: licorice, tea, lithe red fruit, great acidity, smoke. It's drinking nicely right now but it will benefit from further cellaring: Brian nails nebbiolo immediately and astutely chooses Barbaresco, it's a 2001 Filles Cigliuti.

It looked like we were getting down to the bigger wines so I threw in my final entrant: the 2005 Vaillant Domaine Les Grandes Viges "Les Cocainelles Anjou-Villages I posted about recently, a wine I absolutely detested a year ago that has turned into something remarkably good. On the nose burdock root, parsnips, vitamin B6, and chalk. On the palate, black cherry and plums with a bit of chocolate. Fine tannins ease into a good finish. A great upside surprise for the group that way outperforms it's price tag of just $13.

Suddenly Vic swings into action and passes around a friendly puppy of a wine, it's all soft and cuddly and merlotish like a St. Emilion from a warm year. It's not St. Em, though, it's a Cotes du Blaye: 2005 Chateau Bel-Air La Royere. A delicious wine you could serve to anybody as it has something to please, in a way that few wines are able to do, all levels of experience. But wait, Vic's not done, here's another: round, new worldy fruit but savory and smokey in an old worldy way that everyone finds quite appealing, it's a 2003 Taltarni Shiraz. An excellent example of the OTHER Australia.

Now out comes this giant glass orb thing Allen walked in with earlier. I'm not sure what kind of decanter this is, but I am sure it didn't come into this world planning to be one. :) On first sniff, John got off the best line of the night with the two-word question: "Pedro Ximenez?" When we could finally stop laughing, in unison we guessed Napa Cabernet and when Allen initially denied it we called him a liar. It just couldn't NOT be. Sweet black cherry and vanilla with a bit of fennel and cola, thick and fat on the palate. It's a 2003 Pride Reserve Cabernet Sauvignon.

Then Melissa decided she wanted to open a wine, too, so a cold white wine emerged: pale, almost clear with white flowers and hints of white pepper and ginger. Deceptively mild acidity and no oak. Very nice and refreshing after the Pride: 2007 Vinosia Malvasia.

Somehow about this point I spy a corked bottle on the side board I recognize for having one of the most beautiful labels I've ever seen, possibly even THE most beautiful: "Gabe, is that the same bottle we tasted a month ago?" It was. Open four weeks now, the 2008 La Cote de l'Ange CdP Blanc had marzipan and pear going on and though it had been left out a bit too long, it was only barely oxidative. Quite impressive. Would be one to buy and hold.
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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by Rahsaan » Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:26 pm

Jenise wrote:I decided it was time for one of my reds and passed the 2000 Joguet La Dioterie Absolutely perfect for current drinking (Rahsaan, don't you have this one?), and pretty much everybody's WOTN


I don't own any Joguet but it sounds delicious!
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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by Tim York » Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:59 pm

Rahsaan wrote:
Jenise wrote:I decided it was time for one of my reds and passed the 2000 Joguet La Dioterie Absolutely perfect for current drinking (Rahsaan, don't you have this one?), and pretty much everybody's WOTN


I don't own any Joguet but it sounds delicious!


2000 was in the middle of the alleged off phase at Joguet. I have never found much wrong with his wines between 1995 and 2002 which have come my way and this one is further confirmation. The finesse of the bouquet of best Joguet must be experienced to be believed.
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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by Jenise » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:16 pm

Tim York wrote:
Rahsaan wrote:
Jenise wrote:I decided it was time for one of my reds and passed the 2000 Joguet La Dioterie Absolutely perfect for current drinking (Rahsaan, don't you have this one?), and pretty much everybody's WOTN


I don't own any Joguet but it sounds delicious!


2000 was in the middle of the alleged off phase at Joguet. I have never found much wrong with his wines between 1995 and 2002 which have come my way and this one is further confirmation. The finesse of the bouquet of best Joguet must be experienced to be believed.


There was certainly nothing "off phase" about this wine last night, Tim. I owned a number of 98 thru 00's and loved them all, though this was the best of all. And, sadly, the last of my Joguet stock.
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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by David M. Bueker » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:23 pm

So I see you were a big fan of the Pride. :twisted:
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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by Saina » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:36 pm

Sadly, I do not have experience with on-phase Joguet, but I really enjoyed both the '97 Chêne Vert and the '00 Dioterie. Wade Hostler, on one of his trips, brought one over and I liked it so much that on his next trip he gave me his other bottle. It was enormously generous of him. I think I will open it tomorrow since it sounds so delicious. I would really like to try a Joguet from when they were on form since I have enjoyed these two so much. (Funnily enough, I have read many reports that 2005s were back on form, but I really did not get along with the massively extracted and alcoholic styles of the ones I have had.)
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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by Jenise » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:49 pm

David M. Bueker wrote:So I see you were a big fan of the Pride. :twisted:


In the past I've had some Pride wines I've liked better. If this one's any indication, I'm guessing that Pride is one of those wineries whose regular bottlings are more suited to my tastes than the Reserves, But I can't fault Allen: this was a magnanimous offering on his part.
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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by Brian K Miller » Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:08 pm

Erk. I think I have one bottle of Pride...regular bottling, though, and a 2004 so I hope it is drinkable. :?
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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by Dale Williams » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:56 pm

Nice notes. I've enjoyed a lot of Closel la Jalousies.
The Les Cretes wine was from Valle d'Aoste? They should be able to get some acidity!
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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by Agostino Berti » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:30 pm

Dale Williams wrote:The Les Cretes wine was from Valle d'Aoste? They should be able to get some acidity!


I think the answer to that might be that Valle D'Aoste is in Italy but its soul is French, so it doesn't have the Italian acidity. The French tend to prefer gentler wines, wouldn't you say?
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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by Rahsaan » Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:17 pm

Agostino Berti wrote:its soul is French, so it doesn't have the Italian acidity. The French tend to prefer gentler wines, wouldn't you say?


No.
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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by David M. Bueker » Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:40 pm

Brian,

Pride is one of my blind spots. The wines are big, but I like them. 2003 was in fact a bit on the underperforming side for them. I like the '04s as they are not the biggest Cal Cabs versus years like 2001 that were just over the top.
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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by Bob Parsons Alberta » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:55 am

Tim York wrote:
Rahsaan wrote:
Jenise wrote:I decided it was time for one of my reds and passed the 2000 Joguet La Dioterie Absolutely perfect for current drinking (Rahsaan, don't you have this one?), and pretty much everybody's WOTN


I don't own any Joguet but it sounds delicious!


2000 was in the middle of the alleged off phase at Joguet. I have never found much wrong with his wines between 1995 and 2002 which have come my way and this one is further confirmation. The finesse of the bouquet of best Joguet must be experienced to be believed.


Have 2 bottles of the `02 La Dioterie, brought back from last years London trip.
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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by Jenise » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:20 am

Lucky you, Bob! Don't drink them too soon.
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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by Agostino Berti » Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:17 pm

Rahsaan wrote:Agostino Berti wrote:
its soul is French, so it doesn't have the Italian acidity. The French tend to prefer gentler wines, wouldn't you say?


No.


That's a good answer to that question "No." But a little too expansive. :D

If not gentler, let's say the French prefer "rounder" wines. Would you agree with that? Look at it this way, Rahsaan, Italy's two most famous wines, Barolo and Brunello, can't certainly be classified as round. They may achieve that magical moment at some point but it is quite elusive.
Look, on the other hand, at France's two most famous wines, Bordeaux and Burgundy. The whole point of those wines, beyond complexity, is to achieve balance, roundness. And they do, frequently even in their youth.

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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by Rahsaan » Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:21 pm

Agostino Berti wrote:If not gentler, let's say the French prefer "rounder" wines. Would you agree with that?


No.
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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by Rahsaan » Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:26 pm

More seriously, I don't think it makes sense to talk about 'French' and 'Italian' wine. There is so much variation within each category that an overall comparison of 'French' and 'Italian' on this issue makes no sense to me.

I don't think Burgundy or Bordeaux are supposed to be 'round'. And regardless of what those wines are 'supposed' to be, I don't think that necessarily is connected to preferences held by the entire French drinking population (which is also pretty heterogeneous). So I am always very suspicious when I see phrases like "the French prefer..." or "the Americans prefer..." Sure there may be cross-national consumption differences, but I bet that on this issue there are not very stark differences in terms of acidity.

Overall, I think top Burgundy, Bordeaux, Brunello, and Barolo are pretty similar in that they are complex wines that come into their own with a bit of age and are all capable of greatness via their harmony and balance and subtlety.

So we can talk about different wines and grapes being more or less acidic, round, etc but I don't think administrative borders have much to do with those differences.
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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by Salil » Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:37 pm

I'm with Rahsaan here.
Re. your argument Agostino, I think it's a gross generalization to just try and talk about wines from France and Italy (or wine preferences from those areas) by discussing only those four regions when they produce some of the most diverse ranges of wines out there. Barolo and Barbaresco may certainly be some of the most tannic/structured wines in the world (and Brunellos aren't far off), but they're certainly not representative of 'Italian wine' IMO; given stuff like Chianti, the big SuperTuscans and various other wines from Alto Adige or the southern areas, all of which have completely different characteristics.

As for the idea of 'roundness' to compare - while I think the whole argument itself is fairly moot (given that I don't see how you can make generalizations about French or Italian wines) - are you talking about simply texture, overall balance with integration of tannin/acid, or just the levels of acids in the wines?
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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by Dale Williams » Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:59 pm

I'm with Rahsaan and Salil. As to Valle d'Aoste, scarcely the stronghold of the smooth round wine.
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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by Drew Hall » Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:17 pm

Jenise wrote: Now a wine from John: strawberry fruit leather, maple suyrup, oak-ness, dates...merlot? Yes, it had some in it, Spain? Priorat? Yes and yes: 2003 Scala Dei Priorat. Very good and at peak.


I have several cases of this wine and have never tasted strawberry fruit leather and maple syrup. Do you think this was an off bottle or an anomaly?

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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by Agostino Berti » Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:56 pm

Of course it's a generalization. But I think national characteristics are undeniable in many areas. There is a national "soul." Within it a whole range of differences and exceptions but still it is so. For instance, California along with Australian wines tend to be big and oaky, but of course there are exceptions. It is a reality still. It's a reality that most Italians don't like big, oaky wines - I know cause I bring them back and most people I give them to here shudder. They are not used to them cause most Italian wines have never traditionally used any new oak. Are you denying tradition? So there are national characteristics in every field and I have to say I find these differences interesting. I gave a fancy Bordeaux to an Italian friend thinking I was doing him a favor and he didn't like it. You have to keep in mind that Italy and France are not quite the multi-cultural, open-minded beacon that the US is. Why is it that many people on this board often refer to Italian wine's famous "acidity"? I really do find these national characteristics interesting and that's why I like to discuss them. It's like when I talked to Rahsaan about the English palate. Yes its a generalization but throughout the centuries wine was shipped to England from abroad. During those long voyages the wine often became maderized. So there is a tradition of the English liking aged wines with a little bit of that "old" flavor. Most French don't drink their Bordeaux old. Most Italians don't consider ageing wine a virtue either, its a fact. I once had the fortune (or misfortune) of sitting next to one of the Mouton-Rothschild heirs and he said Italy made good wine in the lower priced categories. I retorted that I like artisanal wines, made in small quantities and he shut the heck up (Mouton-Rothschild, as you may know, makes about 350,000 bottles annually.) Sorry about the unrelated anecdote. :mrgreen:
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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by Rahsaan » Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:07 pm

Agostino Berti wrote:There is a national "soul."


Good luck finding that soul. Especially in a country whose unification is not even fully accepted yet! :wink:

For instance, California along with Australian wines tend to be big and oaky, but of course there are exceptions. It is a reality still.


California is a sub-national region and Australia is a country. If you consider US wines from across all states and all the different climates and cultures you'll have a hard time finding your 'national soul' and whatever you do find will not be big and oaky.

Why is it that many people on this board often refer to Italian wine's famous "acidity"?


Because they are referring to wines from specific sub-regions of Italy with lots of acidity. Not quite the same in Campania.

I never said there are no cross-national differences. The story you told about wine being shipped to England is a good one because in that case there was significant variation across nations in terms of shipping. But on this acidic issue there is more variation within countries. France and Italy both have a wide range of wine-growing regions and grapes, which produce wines that range all across the spectrum of high-toned and acidic to thick ripe and sweet. Try telling French people living in the Nantais, Irancy, or Auvergne that they only like 'round' wines.
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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by Agostino Berti » Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:07 pm

Your arguments have so many holes it looks like Billy the Kid rode through your town. :D
Rahsaan wrote:Good luck finding that soul. Especially in a country whose unification is not even fully accepted yet!

I'll give you this one. There are differences, especially between the north and south of Italy. But they all eat pasta don't they? Just like most Americans eat burgers, most Germans eat sausages, and all French eat crap. :mrgreen: But in wine, even Sicily somehow maintains acidity, how's that?

Rahsaan wrote:California is a sub-national region and Australia is a country. If you consider US wines from across all states and all the different climates and cultures you'll have a hard time finding your 'national soul' and whatever you do find will not be big and oaky.

Apart from the fact that there is little meaningful winemaking going on outside the west coast - You know damn well if they could make a big, oaky wine in Long Island they would. It's what people like to drink with their big, sauced up burgers. :P And in the US market is king. While in Italy there are still many producers that stick to "typicity" and tradition, in the US most producers will try to make a wine that sells for as high a price as possible. And, once again, oak is used everywhere in the US, if they can afford it.

Rahsaan wrote:Why is it that many people on this board often refer to Italian wine's famous "acidity"?


Because they are referring to wines from specific sub-regions of Italy with lots of acidity. Not quite the same in Campania.


That's exactly my point. Even in warm regions of Italy there is acidity. Have you had Aglianico recently? Taurasi? Don't tell me those don't have firm acidity. And there's a reason, that's my point. We can't always know the reason but in Italy's case its probably related to food. Throughout the centuries Italian peasants used wine at mealtime for meaningful caloric in-take. The point is firm acidity combines well with Italian food and most Italians, even today, only drink wine while eating. Yes Italy is diverse, but its micro-diverse. They make pasta in slightly different ways all over Italy, but they still all eat pasta.

Rahsaan wrote: Try telling French people living in the Nantais, Irancy, or Auvergne that they only like 'round' wines.


You got me there. I'm not fully informed on France and I don't speak French, which immediately puts me out of the picture. But from the wines I've had, I've noticed this beautiful appreciation for roundness which Italy lacks. Don't get me wrong, I like all wines for what they are. But I do find it interesting that the French have this preference for wines that are much more drinkeable without food. More graceful and fruity with less acidity and tannin. Beaujolais, Burgundy, Cote du Ventoux, French country wines in general are amiable - and a myriad of others whose names I can't pronounce or write.

So when are you coming to Milan so I can cull some old jewels from my cellar and we can suss it all out?
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Re: WTN: Joguet, Closel, SantaDuc, CroixLabrie, Taltarni, Pride

by Rahsaan » Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:19 pm

Agostino Berti wrote:Apart from the fact that there is little meaningful winemaking going on outside the west coast - You know damn well if they could make a big, oaky wine in Long Island they would. It's what people like to drink with their big, sauced up burgers. :P And in the US market is king. While in Italy there are still many producers that stick to "typicity" and tradition, in the US most producers will try to make a wine that sells for as high a price as possible. And, once again, oak is used everywhere in the US, if they can afford it.


None of this makes sense.

We can't always know the reason but in Italy's case its probably related to food. Throughout the centuries Italian peasants used wine at mealtime for meaningful caloric in-take. The point is firm acidity combines well with Italian food and most Italians, even today, only drink wine while eating.


French peasants used wine the same way.

But from the wines I've had, I've noticed this beautiful appreciation for roundness which Italy lacks.


I think you're suffering from a small sample size.

But I do find it interesting that the French have this preference for wines that are much more drinkeable without food.


Funny, because the sterotype that I'm familiar with is that French people mainly drink wine with food.

But regardless, I'm curious where you get your data on French wine preferences? They sound like observations from a very limited sample of people.

More graceful and fruity with less acidity and tannin. Beaujolais, Burgundy, Cote du Ventoux, French country wines in general are amiable - and a myriad of others whose names I can't pronounce or write.


Maybe these wines are not as harsh as the Italian wines you're familiar with because of better winemaking :wink:

More seriously, the peasant versions of all of these wines are also pretty harsh and acidic and mainly used to wash down food. Perhaps the better French wines that have gotten more international fame because they have become more focused on crafting 'complete' elegant wines. But the same could be said for the better Italian wiens that have gotten more international fame.

So when are you coming to Milan so I can cull some old jewels from my cellar and we can suss it all out?


Not soon enough!
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