The place for all things wine, focused on serious wine discussions.

WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

Moderators: Jenise, Robin Garr, David M. Bueker

no avatar
User

Hoke

Rank

Achieving Wine Immortality

Posts

11420

Joined

Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:07 am

Location

Portland, OR

WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by Hoke » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:19 pm

I am in a room with, quite literally, hundreds of wines from dozens of places. A smorgasbord of vinous delight is laid out in front of me. I have an empty glass and endless horizons of sensory delight defined by tables groaning from the weight of countless bottles, and hours to go before the doors close.

I wander. I sample. I reflect. I enjoy. I learn.

Australia, Chile, Argentina, California, Washington, Oregon, Italy, Germany, Austria, Alsace, Bordeaux, Languedoc, Loire...I try them all.

But all the while, I know, deep in my heart, there are a couple of Burgundies in the room. And I know that even as I wander and taste, I am slowly circling in, drawn by the irresistible pull.

Finally, duty done, I drop all pretense and head back to the Frederick Wildman table, where I spotted a couple of classics. Now, I'm not tasting. I'm no longer sampling. And I'm not interested in analyzing. This is Burgundy. I'm drinking.

First, Maison Christian Moreau Chablis Les Clos 2006

Years ago, a wine friend named Rahsaan was rendering a tasting note and uttered the now-famous descriptor "salty lemon oyster shells". No one was quite sure exactly what Rahsaan meant at first, but it made sense. Salty lemon oyster shells indeed: sounds like a spot-on descriptor for this Grand Cru Chablis.

If all Chardonnay were as good as this, I'd be drinking a lot more Chardonnay. It is the pure essence of the grape, absolutely transparent, with nothing masked or overly manipulated. A few truly fine wines have that special combination of saturated---but by no means over-ripe--- fruit and piercing acidity in perfect suspension with each other. This is one of those wines.

With one sip I am instantly transfixed by this Chablis, held in thrall, gently rolling the wine across my palate so I can relish the aroma, the taste and the texture. This is a wine of precision and elegance...does that sound contradictory? It's not. This is crystal to other wines' glass.

It's hard to give up even the small remnant of the Chablis from my glass, but I must if I am to get the next Burgundy, and so I sacrifice.

The next wine is Nicolas Potel Savigny-les-Beaune 1er Cru Les Marconnets 2007.

Up front confession: I have always loved the light elegance of the Pinot Noir of Savigny; it's one of my favorites of the Cote d'Or. Where other plots and communes have force majeure (Corton), or are more sturdy and plain-spoken (Pommard), or are silky and rich (Echezeaux), Savigny is light, cherry-fruity, with gentle mushroomy earthiness. It just suits my palate each time I try it.

This one is no exception. It's a seductive little red and rests gently on the palate with it's soft cherry-berry fruit and just-so acidity and easy-going earthy, loamy, undertone. And true-to-type, it finishes long and warm and whispering.

This is a wine to linger over. It would shine with a meal, of course, but it doesn't need one; it is wondrous and satisfying all by itself, a fireside wine, a late night wine, or as the Italians say, a vino da meditazione. And with this wine, meditation would be...um...transcendent. (sorry)
no avatar
User

Rahsaan

Rank

Wild and Crazy Guy

Posts

9717

Joined

Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:20 pm

Location

New York, NY

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by Rahsaan » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:23 pm

Hoke wrote:I am in a room with, quite literally, hundreds of wines from dozens of places. A smorgasbord of vinous delight is laid out in front of me. I have an empty glass and endless horizons of sensory delight defined by tables groaning from the weight of countless bottles, and hours to go before the doors close.


At first I thought this was a dream but it appears to be reality!

Years ago, a wine friend named Rahsaan was rendering a tasting note and uttered the now-famous descriptor "salty lemon oyster shells". No one was quite sure exactly what Rahsaan meant at first, but it made sense. Salty lemon oyster shells indeed: sounds like a spot-on descriptor for this Grand Cru Chablis.


Glad to hear it! On all accounts.
no avatar
User

Hoke

Rank

Achieving Wine Immortality

Posts

11420

Joined

Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:07 am

Location

Portland, OR

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by Hoke » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:44 pm

At first I thought this was a dream but it appears to be reality!


It was both.

And thanks for the legendary descriptor.
no avatar
User

David M. Bueker

Rank

Childless Cat Dad

Posts

36011

Joined

Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:52 am

Location

Connecticut

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by David M. Bueker » Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:02 pm

Thankfully it wasn't salty lemon oyster shells with a caramel coating!
Decisions are made by those who show up
no avatar
User

Hoke

Rank

Achieving Wine Immortality

Posts

11420

Joined

Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:07 am

Location

Portland, OR

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by Hoke » Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:04 pm

David M. Bueker wrote:Thankfully it wasn't salty lemon oyster shells with a caramel coating!


No, no...that's vin de paille!
no avatar
User

Richard Fadeley OLD

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

493

Joined

Tue May 09, 2006 10:42 pm

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by Richard Fadeley OLD » Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:39 pm

Please, kind of keep this to yourselves, the availability and pricing on Burgundy is already pretty dear! I think most of us already understand what you are talking about. But lets not shout it from the mountain. Maybe a whisper, but then again that might be all this is, all things considered.
I personally think that white Burgundy should be "outlawed" as just too enjoyable. But then again, only the black market would benefit. I guess I'll just have to learn how to control my emotions.
Nice post Hoke!
Richard Fadeley, CWS
aka Webwineman
no avatar
User

Hoke

Rank

Achieving Wine Immortality

Posts

11420

Joined

Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:07 am

Location

Portland, OR

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by Hoke » Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:28 am

Richard, it's always a quandary when I decide to write about good Burgundy: someone may notice and then be willing to pay the already astronomical prices asked. But the stuff is just so damned good, I can't resist telling people about it.

Then, other times, I think, "Hey, I'm not doing anybody any favors putting them on the road to addiction, pursuing that elusive and maddening great Burgundy, wading through so many ordinary wines, and then finding the perfect one again just as you're about ready to quit in frustration. :^)

But these two classic renditions just hit the sweet spot, and reminded me once again of why so many French wines...and Burgundy in particular---is so meaningful in the wine world.

When a wine can exert that powerful an influence, and make the rest of the room disappear for a moment, it's something worth writing about.
no avatar
User

Dale Williams

Rank

Compassionate Connoisseur

Posts

11880

Joined

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:32 pm

Location

Dobbs Ferry, NY (NYC metro)

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by Dale Williams » Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:40 pm

While I love great wine in most of its incarnations, great (or even good) Burgundy is amazing in how it draws us like moths to the (pocketbook) flame.

I just visited Robert Parker's twitter page today for the first time, to see if it could really be true that he tweeted that those who don't like big Barossa Shiraz are the "anti- flavor wine elite." Yep, he said it. But equally amazing was something he said a few days ago re Pinot Noir
" normally this grape produces the most over-priced wine from planet earth, and the one with the most snob appeal"
There is certainly plenty of overpriced PN (Burgundian and otherwise). But is there really more snob appeal that the Screaming Eagles, Harlans, Pegua Capo, Pavie? I don't think it's snobbism that leads so many people to gravitate more and more to Burgundy as they spend more time around wine.
no avatar
User

Rahsaan

Rank

Wild and Crazy Guy

Posts

9717

Joined

Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:20 pm

Location

New York, NY

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by Rahsaan » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:29 pm

I'm sure it was nothing but snobbism that led Hoke to enjoy that prestige-filled Savigny.
no avatar
User

Dale Williams

Rank

Compassionate Connoisseur

Posts

11880

Joined

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:32 pm

Location

Dobbs Ferry, NY (NYC metro)

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by Dale Williams » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:47 pm

Rahsaan wrote:I'm sure it was nothing but snobbism that led Hoke to enjoy that prestige-filled Savigny.


yes, clearly Savigny is wine of highbrows, while real down to earth people drink prestige cuvee CdP, cult Cabs, and garagiste Bordeaux.
no avatar
User

Hoke

Rank

Achieving Wine Immortality

Posts

11420

Joined

Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:07 am

Location

Portland, OR

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by Hoke » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:57 pm

Yep, that's me and Savigny, snobby all the way. both of us.
no avatar
User

AlexR

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

806

Joined

Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:28 am

Location

Bordeaux

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by AlexR » Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:38 am

Hoke,

Loved the lyrical writing in your post.
"With one sip I am instantly transfixed by this Chablis, held in thrall, gently rolling the wine across my palate so I can relish the aroma, the taste and the texture"

Burgundy, expensive?
I was just there, and while the low-end wines are, to a great extent, indeed too expensive in my humble opinion, the high-end ones, if carefully chosen, seemed a much better value than great growth Bordeaux these days!
Not considering the (reputedly) top-flight domaines, you can buy grands cru for 50-70 euros.
That's a far cry from the likes of Ducru Beaucaillou, Palmer, Léovile Las Cases et al.

Best regards,
Alex R.
(opening up to the wines of the Côte d'Or, as complicated as that can be).
no avatar
User

Oswaldo Costa

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

1902

Joined

Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:30 am

Location

São Paulo, Brazil

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by Oswaldo Costa » Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:10 am

AlexR wrote:Hoke,

Loved the lyrical writing in your post.
"With one sip I am instantly transfixed by this Chablis, held in thrall, gently rolling the wine across my palate so I can relish the aroma, the taste and the texture"

Burgundy, expensive?
I was just there, and while the low-end wines are, to a great extent, indeed too expensive in my humble opinion, the high-end ones, if carefully chosen, seemed a much better value than great growth Bordeaux these days!
Not considering the (reputedly) top-flight domaines, you can buy grands cru for 50-70 euros.
That's a far cry from the likes of Ducru Beaucaillou, Palmer, Léovile Las Cases et al.

Best regards,
Alex R.
(opening up to the wines of the Côte d'Or, as complicated as that can be).


I am flabbergasted! :lol: When are you moving to Beaune?
"I went on a rigorous diet that eliminated alcohol, fat and sugar. In two weeks, I lost 14 days." Tim Maia, Brazilian singer-songwriter.
no avatar
User

AlexR

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

806

Joined

Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:28 am

Location

Bordeaux

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by AlexR » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:04 am

Hi Oswaldo,

Ah, moving to Beaune...
I think it would probably take just that to begin to understand the complexities of Burgundy.
And you could probably have a very good life there.
Furthermore, there's easy TGV access to Paris.

However, I would really miss the advantages of a city if I lived in Beaune.
Burgundy is so TINY, and I'm not a country person...

All the best,
Alex
no avatar
User

Salil

Rank

Franc de Pied

Posts

2689

Joined

Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:26 pm

Location

albany, ny

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by Salil » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:18 am

Dale Williams wrote:I just visited Robert Parker's twitter page today for the first time, to see if it could really be true that he tweeted that those who don't like big Barossa Shiraz are the "anti- flavor wine elite." Yep, he said it. But equally amazing was something he said a few days ago re Pinot Noir

So what would he call the elitists who don't like other more classical Aussie wines like Mount Mary, particularly those who trash said wines with prose like 'meagerly endowed', 'high in acid and austere'?
no avatar
User

Glenn Mackles

Rank

Ultra geek

Posts

451

Joined

Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:52 am

Location

Virginia

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by Glenn Mackles » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:26 am

I think a person (and a critic especially) has lost it when they go after people who don't share their own personal taste. Some people like flavor bombs, some people like something more subtle. Some people like more sugar and some like more acidity. Some like slapstick and some like satire. And everyone values what they like more that what they don't.

Glenn
"If you can find something everyone agrees on, it's wrong." Mo Udall
no avatar
User

Rahsaan

Rank

Wild and Crazy Guy

Posts

9717

Joined

Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:20 pm

Location

New York, NY

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by Rahsaan » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:28 am

AlexR wrote:Not considering the (reputedly) top-flight domaines, you can buy grands cru for 50-70 euros..


Yes, but only at the domaine. And that's not even an option for most French people let alone those living abroad.

Try buying Burgundy in Paris and see how you feel about the prices!
no avatar
User

Rahsaan

Rank

Wild and Crazy Guy

Posts

9717

Joined

Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:20 pm

Location

New York, NY

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by Rahsaan » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:49 am

I should add that I am hardly anti-Burgundy and am happy that Alex is getting into the wines! I just never think of it as a particularly 'high-value' region, although I do see your point about the comparison with Bordeaux.

Still, the numbers seem a bit off. And especially for American shoppers (which you may not care about). But here one has to work very hard to find good premier crus from the Cote de Nuits or from fashionable Cote de Beaune between $50-70. There is a lot of mediocre stuff sold at that level. And you'd be damned lucky to find good Grand Crus at that price.
no avatar
User

Hoke

Rank

Achieving Wine Immortality

Posts

11420

Joined

Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:07 am

Location

Portland, OR

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by Hoke » Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:43 pm

Alex: I wrote off the great wines of Bordeaux some years ago, as they have become so far out of my reach as to be permanently placed out of my imagination also. I grieve over that sometimes; but not much anymore.

I content myself with the occasional interesting Bordeaux, and the few remaining in my "cellar" that I have from time to time.

Alex/Rahsaan: I sort of split the difference on the issue of value and Burgundy, guys. I think there are several excellent quality Burgundians around for me to enjoy at fairly reasonable prices (especially as compared to Bordeaux). There remain enough good negociants and, even better small producers, who satisfy my jones.

I'm quite happy, quite frequently, with some of the modestly priced commune-level Burgs, and the "lower level" wines like...say, Marsannay and Savigny, and such. True, I don't (or can't) enjoy as many of the top 1er Cru or the Grand Cru as I'd like, but then, life isn't perfect. And they are significantly more attainable than the comparable top flight Bordeaux.

So while I wouldn't call Burgundy "great value" in the sense of being readily affordable, I wouldn't call it mostly overpriced either.

And if I could live there and enjoy it as a local tipple, I'd simply call it "home". Gladly. 8)

ALL: But all of this actually leads me to a more serious question: why is it that Pinot Noir is, to me, a much more satisfying, rewarding, sensually and intellectually stimulating, wine than Bordeaux? It is not just the Pinot Noir/Bordeaux Blend difference in grape varieties (although that's part of it). It is not the expressed terroir (although that's part of it too, I think). It has nothing to do with price (even with the astronomy of Bordeaux prices). It might have to do with weight (but maybe not, or only partially so). It might have to do with clarity versus translucency (perhaps). It might be simply acidity versus tannins (though I doubt it is that simple).

Thoughts by all would be appreciated (either in defense of Burgundy/Pinot Noir or Bordeaxu/Bordeaux Blends). Permission to wax romantic or philosophical granted.
no avatar
User

Rahsaan

Rank

Wild and Crazy Guy

Posts

9717

Joined

Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:20 pm

Location

New York, NY

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by Rahsaan » Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:09 pm

Hoke wrote:ALL: But all of this actually leads me to a more serious question: why is it that Pinot Noir is, to me, a much more satisfying, rewarding, sensually and intellectually stimulating, wine than Bordeaux?


Is this not an issue of mono-cepage vs. blend? I know that's part of why I like Burgundy (and other mono-cepage wines) because of the clarity of expression.

But then maybe you just prefer the flavors and textures of some grapes as opposed to others?
no avatar
User

Hoke

Rank

Achieving Wine Immortality

Posts

11420

Joined

Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:07 am

Location

Portland, OR

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by Hoke » Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:45 pm

Rahsaan wrote:
Hoke wrote:ALL: But all of this actually leads me to a more serious question: why is it that Pinot Noir is, to me, a much more satisfying, rewarding, sensually and intellectually stimulating, wine than Bordeaux?


Is this not an issue of mono-cepage vs. blend? I know that's part of why I like Burgundy (and other mono-cepage wines) because of the clarity of expression.

But then maybe you just prefer the flavors and textures of some grapes as opposed to others?


Oh, I see where you're going, but as usual, it's not that easy.

If it's monocepage versus blend....why is Cotes du Rhone one of my favorite wines?

I like ESG Heart of Gold because of it's clarity of expression...and it's a blend of two varieties.

So it's not just blend vs. mono.

I think it does have to do with clarity of expression though. Also think it has to do with subtlety versus force too. Maybe I'd like the Bordeaux better if I was able to drink only the best wines and well-aged at that?

Certainly Burgundy is more accessible (although not necessarily at its best) when young, where young(ish)Bordeaux rarely is all that immediately accessible.

Maybe it is as simple as loving a particular variety? I do like PN in general...although, again, I rarely like the various and sundry PNs as much as I do the good Burgundians. Maybe it's the breeding and inbreeding of Burgundy that does it for me? :lol:
no avatar
User

Dale Williams

Rank

Compassionate Connoisseur

Posts

11880

Joined

Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:32 pm

Location

Dobbs Ferry, NY (NYC metro)

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by Dale Williams » Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:07 pm

Hoke wrote:Thoughts by all would be appreciated (either in defense of Burgundy/Pinot Noir or Bordeaxu/Bordeaux Blends)..


I'm afraid I couldn't take sides. I love variety and could never choose between the two. Each does something different, and can be (for me) magical. It's hip to not like Bordeaux these days, but a Bordeaux (82 Gloria) was my epiphany wine years ago, and Bdx is still the largest component of my cellar. I've been lucky enough to taste 1sts from most of the great vintages since 1959 - some amazing wines. But I've also delighted in "lesser" wines from great vintages, and top wines from lesser vintages, and yes even "lesser" wines from "lesser" vintages. I prefer claret with age, but sometimes with a steak a young Bordeaux is a delight. Not all are expensive either- I just bought 04 Lagrange (StJ) for $12.50/half, Chambers carries the lovely Peybonhomme/Grolet line for $12-16, etc.

Sure there are some expensive modern Bordeaux made in a style I cannot stand- but I ain't too fond of Dugat-Py or Perrot-Minot, either, and they're not cheap.

But that doesn't mean I don't love Burgundy just as much (and it's number 2 in cellar space- I started later). Most of my purchases are of things like Savigny 1ers, village Chambolle, etc. Few Grand Crus for my budget - but I find a lot of interest in good Bourgogne AC and other wines that some might not find prestigious.

If I had to be totally objective (whatever that means), I might have to agree it's harder to find good to great Burgundy or Bordeaux at say under $25 than it is to find say Loires or Rhones at same price. But I buy all of them, just selectively. While I limited my main comments to Burg/PN and Bdx/blends because that's what you asked for, the same arguments would apply to Piedmont/Nebbiolo, Tuscany/Sangiovese, Mosel/Riesling, etc. A smart consumer who knows their own taste can find value in lots of different regions.
no avatar
User

AlexR

Rank

Wine guru

Posts

806

Joined

Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:28 am

Location

Bordeaux

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by AlexR » Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:06 pm

Hoke,

Surely, one cannot say that a fine Burgundy is "better" than a Bordeaux of a comparable level.
Or vice versa!

Heck, you prefer Burgundy, simple as that... even if your post implies that if great growth prices in Bordeaux had not gone outtasite, your eye night never have wandered...

Also, all of us tend to like what we're used to.
I can remember when I first came to Bordeaux from the Napa Valley. I thought the wines had lovely aromas, but that they lacked "stuffing".
Now I find the California wines are virile, but lack elegance and digestibility.
Go figure...

Best regards,
Alex R.
no avatar
User

Rahsaan

Rank

Wild and Crazy Guy

Posts

9717

Joined

Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:20 pm

Location

New York, NY

Re: WTN: On The Ineluctible Gravitational Pull of Burgundy

by Rahsaan » Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:01 pm

Hoke wrote:If it's monocepage versus blend....why is Cotes du Rhone one of my favorite wines?


You must have a diverse and wandering palate!

Nothing wrong with that..
Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Babbar, ClaudeBot, FB-extagent and 0 guests

Powered by phpBB ® | phpBB3 Style by KomiDesign