Cooking with wine

Does the quality of the wine matter much when using wine to make a reduction sauce?

The last time I made a dish (winter squash flan with sauteed greens), I used a good amount of a really nice Les Cretes petit rouge. The kitchen never smelt so good.

I'll be remaking the dish for some friends, and there is a bottle of some open red plonk in the fridge--will it make a big difference in the sauce if I go cheap and use that up instead of popping open something nice?

Don't know enough about this dish to know. If the good stuff worked the first time, don't screw it up. My general opinion is that it depends on the dish. Those that need the longer cooking can stand the less than top drawer stuff. Secondly, low price does not necessarily equate to plonk. There is a lot of under $10 stuff out there that is just fine for cooking.

I'd agree with Carl that it depends on the dish. We mostly use "whatever's open" for cooking, but while a half cup added to a large pot is probably mostly for acidity, a reduction is probably going to show some of the wine's character. I wouldn't splurge, but I wouldn't use a wine I thought didn't taste good or was flawed. Except....I used to think that cooking with corked wine was crazy. But a few years Sue Courtney posted on WLDG about making a sauce from a corked wine. I scoffed, but tried it. Hmmm, no TCA. The key seems to be the wine boiling for a bit. I believe Mark L said TCA is quite heat volatile (someone has since told me it boils at 160F). Since then I have used corked wines in several recipes that require the wine to boil, no issues.

I don't think quality makes as big a difference as variety does. Pick a wine that you would normally drink with the dish. Of course WC said it best, “I cook with wine, sometimes I even add it to the food.”

Except....I used to think that cooking with corked wine was crazy. But a few years Sue Courtney posted on WLDG about making a sauce from a corked wine. I scoffed, but tried it. Hmmm, no TCA. The key seems to be the wine boiling for a bit. I believe Mark L said TCA is quite heat volatile (someone has since told me it boils at 160F). Since then I have used corked wines in several recipes that require the wine to boil, no issues.

I understand the key is to boil the wine BEFORE it makes contact with fats - the fats will fix/absorb/adsorb (I am not sure exactly what) the TCA and stop it becoming volatile. That certainly chimes with my limited experience. Deglazing a pan using a badly corked wine was a bad experience - I got a nasty corked sauce - but boiling wine before using for deglazing seems (I've only used slightly corked wines so far) to be OK

Annd presumably it is OK to cook with wine that has heat damage...?

Curmudgeon's Rule #1: Never cook with a wine that you would not want to drink.

(a) Saying that one uses wines left over is fine because I assume that means a wine that was enjoyed and set aside for possible later drinking or use in cooking afterwards.

(b) Indeed TCA itself will boil off but that will not stop its negative impact on the wine no matter when it boils off and those who are hypersensitive to TCA will feel it at any rate. True, if you serve a dish so hot that it might almost sear the palate the TCA will go un-noticed but your guests will not forgive you for burning their palates.

Curmudgeon's Rule #2 (But More Flexible): Try to prepare dishes with a wine similar in nature to the one you are going to serve with the dish. Don't use the 1990 Margaux but do use a similar Bordeaux blend.


Best
Rogov

What Rogov said in Rule #1.

I believe Mark L said TCA is quite heat volatile (someone has since told me it boils at 160F). Since then I have used corked wines in several recipes that require the wine to boil, no issues.

Sorry, Dale, but I believe that I told you precisely the opposite (either that, or I was on drugs when previously discussing this). TCA is a very non-volatile compound, boiling at 250°C (482°F). There is a distinct possibility, though, that it could nonetheless be removed by boiling via a process known as "steam distillation" which is a time-honored way to volatilize non-volatile oils. One would think, though, that the room would reek of TCA while the sauce is reducing.

Mark Lipton

I think the flavour of the wine you use really does make a difference to a reduction sauce, so I wouldn't want to use anything I wouldn't drink with enjoyment.

TCA is a very non-volatile compound, boiling at 250°C (482°F).

That's at around normal atmospheric pressure presumably?

I am also wondering how it being non-volatile squares with it being easy to detect on the nose. Could you help me with that one? Presumably heating a corked wine will drive off some TCA even if it does not boil...? I suppose the problem is that it will get rid of water quicker.

So many questions! I did basic university chemistry but it seems I have forgotten so much.

Sorry, Mark, I misspoke, it seems it was steam distillation that you thought was at work "I have no idea what the upper limit for boiling is for
steam distillation, but I do know that 1-octanol, with a boiling point of 195°C does steam distill, so TCA likely will, too. Interestingly, in same discussion, Emery D. said he used corked wines for cooking, but had a recent bad experience with deglazing a steak with a corked port (as Steve notes). I recently boiled a corked Burgundy, used with no taint in a stew. I'm probably a 4 on a 1 to 10 scale of sensitivity, but Betsy is quite sensitive, no hint.

This curmudgeon is in absolute agreement with the other curmudgeon.

TCA is a very non-volatile compound, boiling at 250°C (482°F).

That's at around normal atmospheric pressure presumably?

Correct, Steve. The actual figure is a boiling point of 132°C at 28 Torr, which I have corrected to atmospheric pressure using a pressure-temperature nomograph.

I am also wondering how it being non-volatile squares with it being easy to detect on the nose. Could you help me with that one? Presumably heating a corked wine will drive off some TCA even if it does not boil...? I suppose the problem is that it will get rid of water quicker.

I have wrestled with that question of smelling such a non-volatile compound, too, but keep in mind that we detect its smell at 3-10 ppb concentration, so you don't have to get a lot into the gas phase to smell it.

Mark Lipton

But a few years Sue Courtney posted on WLDG about making a sauce from a corked wine. I scoffed, but tried it. Hmmm, no TCA. The key seems to be the wine boiling for a bit. I believe Mark L said TCA is quite heat volatile (someone has since told me it boils at 160F). Since then I have used corked wines in several recipes that require the wine to boil, no issues.

Hey Dale, so glad you tried it to find that it really does work, despite others still disbelieving.

Deglazing a pan using a badly corked wine was a bad experience - I got a nasty corked sauce - but boiling wine before using for deglazing seems (I've only used slightly corked wines so far) to be OK.

I have only used corked wine in reductions - I wouldn't use for deglazing a pan - although your theory about boiling the wine first sounds fine.

One would think, though, that the room would reek of TCA while the sauce is reducing.

I don't remember that, but I do remember the wonderful smell of berries as the wine reduced - about five minutes into the reduction phase - gosh, the smell was fantastic.

The other thing is I've only cooked with young corked wines - but I really would prefer to get the wine replaced.

I would also never used heavily Brett-affected wines - I did once and I could still taste the boot leather and the cow pats in the sauce. I do not use Bretty wines in wine reductions either. That character doesn't seem to go away despite the boiling.

Cheers,
Sue