Beaujoulais and the question of "minerality"

In his excellent book The New France, author Andrew Jefford, in the section on Beaujoulais, presents a discourse on the question of why Beaujoulais has no minerality despite having such mineral rich and diverse terrior. He works through the possible reasons, and is unable to solve the problem he presents. Increasingly however, I think the problem is that his premise is flawed. Beaujoulais has all sorts of minerality.

Exhibit A:

I'm drinking a "simple" 2008 Terres Dorees Brun L'Ancienne, which in addition to lovely bright red cherry perfume, is packed with familiar mineral tastes, ranging from an obvious chalk and salinity on the palate to "rain on stone" on the nose. Gamay fruit here is an afterthought: This is an electric conduit of chalky terrior into liquid form (On a side note, this is one of the best $12 wines I've ever had. I ran to the computer to order a case of it for daily drinking.)

More and more I'm finding all sorts of minerality in beaujoulais. So this poses a couple questions for me, as I've just arrived to the beaujoulais party (over the last couple years):

1. Are these mineral expressions new, or owing to the quality revolution in beaujoulais?

or...

2. Is it possible that minerality is more likely come with wines that are not made totally with carbonic masceration? (My understanding is that Brun, for instance, uses a form of Burgundian semi-carbonic).

or 3: minerality is an overused and misunderstood term in wine descriptors.

For my purposes, minerality is often related to acidity and is something experienced rather than tasted.

I know people (including myself) often talk about 'tasting' minerality, but I think that's just a short-hand for all sorts of diverse chemical compounds. I don't get too much into the science so I don't know what they are, but it would seem that all sorts of grapes/regions/blends can exhibit 'minerality' and it is not a direct relation to the soil. So why not Beaujolais? I often used 'minerality' to describe Beaujolais.

But this topic has probably been discussed many times on all wine boards if you want to dig up archives.

Rahsann,

I'm well aware of the argument over whether or not minerality is "real," but that's not really what I was asking. I was asking why it has been, ostensibly at least, conventionally accepted that Beaujoulais are *not* wines of minerality, when this received wisdom runs so counter to my own experience. Looked at one way, the answer to this question doesn't really depend on whether or not you believe minerality exists in the "romantic" sense, although looked at another, I suppose the answer won't be very interesting if you don't.

I'll play my cards: I've seen too many examples of wines where other definitions of what minerality "is" (after all, nobody disagrees that wines don't have mineral tastes) just don't make any sense--this becomes especially true with white wines, in my experience, in places like Germany. So I do believe in "minerality" in the romantic sense based on my own empirical data. At the same time, I'm familiar with the different bacterial infections (what's that one you find in cheese rinds?) that make wines taste like dirt/mineral.

But no matter what one's position, there are many examples of Beaujoulais out there with stark minerality, no matter what the cause, that in my opinion its begs the questions about the recieved wisdom about these wines.

The real question is, I suppose, am I crazy, or is it true that Beaujoulais wines are *very* mineral driven? And isn't then the conventional wisdom rather odd on this count?

I'm well aware of the argument over whether or not minerality is "real," but that's not really what I was asking. I was asking why it has been, ostensibly at least, conventionally accepted that Beaujoulais are *not* wines of minerality...

I never knew that was conventional wisdom. Sounds like a minority viewpoint if you ask me. But I know Andrew Jeffords is a respected writer so perhaps he has a specific definition of mineral in mind.

I agree that minerality makes sense as a descriptor. Although I think a lot of it in German wine comes from the quality of the acids.

Well that's a fair response: perhaps Jeffords, despite devoting so much space to the issue, has simply misread the conventional wisdom on this account and/or passed his own beliefs off as such.

Well that's a fair response: perhaps Jeffords, despite devoting so much space to the issue, has simply misread the conventional wisdom on this account and/or passed his own beliefs off as such.

Well, it would be good to get some other views. It certainly sounded odd to me but I'm not going to claim to be an expert and am sure that Jeffords had something useful to say. I've heard winemakers use minerality in various ways so maybe Jeffords was talking about something very specific (i.e. a distinction between fruit and mineral, I don't think, just thinking out loud).

I should add that, as evidence, Jefford cites the fact that one rarely sees the descriptor mineral in tasting notes of Beaujoulais.

And I suppose I take that to be true, to a point. But now, recently, one *does* increasingly see this descriptor in tasting notes, in my experience.

And at least one sees it in my tasting notes!

[David M. Bueker]

Perhaps the lack of mineral descriptors has more to do with the overt frutiness of young Beaujolais (realizing that virtually all professional tastings are of young wines) overshadowing almost any other component.

The real question is, I suppose, am I crazy, or is it true that Beaujoulais wines are *very* mineral driven? And isn't then the conventional wisdom rather odd on this count?

I wasn't aware the conventional wisdom was that Beaujolais was positively not minerally. I suspect, as David suggests, that it may be the fruity nature of much Bojo (especially Nouveau and Villages) that give this impression. I personally find plenty of Cru Beaujo quite minerally (in the sense of smelling of wet rock).

I go along with most people here in finding minerality in a lot of Beaujolais. I use the term quite loosely in a similar way to that described by Rahsaan. When I can identify a specific mineral, e.g. flint, I try to say so, but that is quite rare basically because I'm not very clear how, say, rocks of different type smell and taste.

I wonder if Andrew Jefford belongs to the school which thinks that the taste of specific minerals in a soil can be identified in a wine. I am sceptical about this; I am sure that the soil influences taste but not in quite such a directly identifiable way.

Terry Theise discussed minerality in a way I found pretty useful in his latest annual catalogue, which I only got to yesterday (thanks, David, for posting the link in the A.J. Adam thread).

Ed, is "Beaujoulais" a conflation of Beaujolais and kilojoules!"

Terry Theise discussed minerality in a way I found pretty useful in his latest annual catalogue, which I only got to yesterday (thanks, David, for posting the link in the A.J. Adam thread).

Ed, is "Beaujoulais" a conflation of Beaujolais and kilojoules!"

Have you got a link, Oswaldo? I tried a Google on Terry Theise and minerality but didn't get very far.

Having just examined my archive of tasting notes, I find one use of minerality in the context of a Beaujolais: a 2005 Vissoux Fleurie Poncié tasted in '07 which I described as having a "profound mineral streak."

Mark Lipton

[David M. Bueker]

Terry Theise discussed minerality in a way I found pretty useful in his latest annual catalogue, which I only got to yesterday (thanks, David, for posting the link in the A.J. Adam thread).

Ed, is "Beaujoulais" a conflation of Beaujolais and kilojoules!"

Have you got a link, Oswaldo? I tried a Google on Terry Theise and minerality but didn't get very far.

Tim - it's not going to show up that way, as it's a pdf document. Try this link.

Thanks for that link, David. What a fabulous selection of German wine!!! That description of minerality will help to tighten up my use of the word. And yes, I do find minerality of the sort he describes in a lot of Beaujolais.

That is indeed a marvellous list. Those lucky enough to obtain some of the gems listed are so fortunate.
Guilty, mi` lud. I too band the word "mineral" around far too easily.

For the record, Jefford argues, "The region offers one of the most purely mineral of wine-growing environments: the vines' roots here bathe in granite, schist, and sand. It is rare, however, to find 'mineral' flavours mentioned in Beaujolais tasting notes; the customary references are overwhelmingly to fruits and flowers."

He then goes to to look at the different possible reasons why one does not find mineral in Beaujolais wines.

PS: What is kilojoules?

It is rare, however, to find 'mineral' flavours mentioned in Beaujolais tasting notes; the customary references are overwhelmingly to fruits and flowers."

I guess that explains it.

He doesn't read the same wine board tasting notes that I do

And I read almost no 'commercial' tasting notes.

[David M. Bueker]

PS: What is kilojoules?

Measure of energy.

or 3: minerality is an overused and misunderstood term in wine descriptors.

Hear, hear!!

For my purposes, minerality is often related to acidity and is something experienced rather than tasted.

When I read mineral in a descriptor, that is what I think - that plus the pH of the wine. It's just people do not know how to describe it, so they just say / write 'minerality'.

I know people (including myself) often talk about 'tasting' minerality, but I think that's just a short-hand for all sorts of diverse chemical compounds. I don't get too much into the science so I don't know what they are, but it would seem that all sorts of grapes/regions/blends can exhibit 'minerality' and it is not a direct relation to the soil.

I am sipping on an apple cider right now (it is hot here and this is so refreshing). This cider is dry with lots of acidity and some astringency and I know that if this was a wine it would be described by many as having 'minerality'.

Cheers,
Sue

For the record, Jefford argues, "The region offers one of the most purely mineral of wine-growing environments: the vines' roots here bathe in granite, schist, and sand ... "

Not shooting the messenger, Ed, but I find Jefford's statement a bit eyebrow raising. All rocks, whether they be granite, schist, limestone or clays are composed of minerals. As the rocks break down and weather, you have the influence of vegetation too. Furthermore, sand can be made of many rock types. It's just that the grain size that makes it sand - a little coarser than silt.
Cheers,
Sue

Having just examined my archive of tasting notes, I find one use of minerality in the context of a Beaujolais: a 2005 Vissoux Fleurie Poncié tasted in '07 which I described as having a "profound mineral streak."

Mark Lipton

In Geology 101 you learn to streak minerals on a streak plate. It helps to identify them. Graphite, of course, was best.

Could soda water ie carbon dioxide saturated water without sugar, be a good example of "minerality" ?
{at the very least it has some of "anion entity" of many minerals.}

or 3: minerality is an overused and misunderstood term in wine descriptors.

Hear, hear!!

For my purposes, minerality is often related to acidity and is something experienced rather than tasted.

When I read mineral in a descriptor, that is what I think - that plus the pH of the wine. It's just people do not know how to describe it, so they just say / write 'minerality'.

I know people (including myself) often talk about 'tasting' minerality, but I think that's just a short-hand for all sorts of diverse chemical compounds. I don't get too much into the science so I don't know what they are, but it would seem that all sorts of grapes/regions/blends can exhibit 'minerality' and it is not a direct relation to the soil.

I am sipping on an apple cider right now (it is hot here and this is so refreshing). This cider is dry with lots of acidity and some astringency and I know that if this was a wine it would be described by many as having 'minerality'.

Sue, I wondered when a famous minerality sceptic like you was going to wade in. Did you read the Terry Theise link, which is in one of David Bueker's posts in this thread? The part dealing with minerality in German Riesling is on page 8. The rather lyrical writing style grates a little with me but I think that he distinguishes well between minerality and acidity.

If one can talk about fruit, floral and animal flavours, etc., I really don't see why one should be derided for referring to mineral flavours. This corresponds to a very real perception with many of us in many wines, even though the borderline between perception of fruit acidity and minerality is somewhat blurred. I don't see the need to specify which mineral (schist, granite, clay, flint, etc.) we identify any more than with fruit or floral flavours, unless an element is particularly marked like cherry in some Burgundy and Northern Rhône and flint in some Chablis.

I am sceptical about the theory that minerals in the ground translate directly into the same mineral tastes in the wine, which is what Andrew Jefford appears to think, but that won't make me stop referring to minerals when I perceive them in a wine's taste profile whilst taking a bit more care to distinguish between acidity and mineral perception.

By the way, why not minerality in cider?