Wine can make food taste like excrement, or delicious

I'd like to start this with a 'provocation'.
I believe that wine actually does not suit food!
Test: try taking a mouthfull of any food, and a good sip of any wine into your mouth, and taste the combination in your mouth for a moment before swallowing. You can make that test with a wine & food combination you have appreciated earlier, or with a combination some guru has recommended, or just do the test randomly.

My experience is that the result is untastefull.

Furthermore I find that it is more common for food to become less tasty if wine is used in cooking than I would give credit to á-vin-recipes as such. This I say conditionally because there are ways of not subdueing the rich taste of food substances even if wine is used in the kitchen. And in skillful hands, when excesses of wine use is evaded, and the wine is evaporated more, wine can actually be beneficial in cooking.

After these generalities, I'd like to tell about a resent dinner with good, wine-loving friends.

We were having "blue clams" and a not-totally-dry Rietzling for starters.


Photo (c) Hannu Lehmusvuori

The blue clams were cooked with a modicum of dry white plus the usual creme, herbs, etc.
The combination of Rietzling and the clams was harmonious and 'tastier-than-hell'!

After the clams we had 'pork-in-the-oven' as our main course. With a Spanish Syrah - Infinitus 2007.
Again a most pleasing combination.

Following the main meal, we started enjoying some reasonably mature 'white-mould' cheese with the mentioned wines still on the table.

This is where I found the extraordinary disaster. Having first sipped the Rietzling, and then putting a piece of the cheese in my mouth, the 'edel' mould of the cheese tasted like excrement! And I've tasted that cheese before, and found it most pleasant.

When I changed to the Syrah, Infinitus, the rich cheese-mould, and the soft taste of the cheese essence, were lifted in taste to 'great-spheres-of-tastebud-appealing'!

So, have you had such experiences? And how do you take my 'provocation' in the beginning of this comment?
-Hannu

[Jenise]

Test: try taking a mouthfull of any food, and a good sip of any wine into your mouth, and taste the combination in your mouth for a moment before swallowing. You can make that test with a wine & food combination you have appreciated earlier, or with a combination some guru has recommended, or just do the test randomly.

I had a friend once who insisted on this test as the gauge for whether a wine and food were well matched; I thought she was absolutely nuts. For me, wine-food pairing is about how the food prepares my taste buds for the wine to follow AND vice versa. Sometimes it's an almost seamless transition, and sometimes it's a pleasant contrast. But either way, the experience I'm looking for is one where each is better when alternated with the other and occasionally, that stratospheric, gift-from-heaven kind of a match. But in the same mouthful? That proves nothing as far as I'm concerned. Sorry, but you asked.

Appreciate your commonsense reply. The alternative way of thinking is that you don't have the same with beer or milk. Or even with Coca-Cola! That makes one more inquisitive!

Any 'excrement' experiences to share that you have come across with wine-food pairing?

Jenise,
I'm sorry that I did not put more stress on the fact that the tasting expreriment/experiece quoted in my 'input' had two parts. One with the provocation, which I still think needs more scrutiny, and the meal where we REALLY did have wine with food in the beneficial way that pairs them: one after the other, after the other, after the other...

I am probably in the minority in agreeing with your provocation, Hannu: I actually believe most wine doesn't taste better with most food. I am looking for the kind of experience Jenise mentions, where the taste of the food and wine elevate each other to an experience greater, "newer", than each standing alone. I find that experience to be rare, but I probably have an unusually high standard in this regard.

When it comes to the mechanisms of matching food and wine, I'm probably more a heretic than a provoker! I expect most people would agree that the main critereon for a successful match is balance, but how that's interpreted is where the differences lie. For me, generally, the food must have a higher perceived acidity than the wine, the perceived weight of the food in the mouth should ideally be relatively close to that of the wine... etc. To illustrate the first point, try drinking a sweet wine - I'm talking "dessert"/Auslese-level sweetness - with a dessert inwhich the perceived acidity is lower than the wine and the perceived sweetness is higher than the wine: the wine tastes sour after a mouthful of the dessert. Then try that same wine with a dessert that has higher perceived acidity than the wine and similar perceived sweetness: in my experience, the wine tastes much better after eating a mouthful of the dessert.

IMO, most food-wine combos don't even get these kind of fundamentals right, and specifying a certain kind of dish to go with a wine without reference to the acidity/sweetness/body/etc of the dish (e.g., how the saucing is relative to the wine in terms of features like acidity) AND the wine is pointless. Beyond balance, there's the flavour matching aspect: I've heard many suggestions that a wine tasting of a particular ingredient (e.g. a fruit/spice) be matched with a dish including some of that ingredient. For me that rule doesn't work either because the flavours often seem to "cancel" each other out. Instead, the best combinations tend to be flavours that play off each other and send each other in different directions. That's what makes food-wine combos interesting. Of course, there are always anomolies.

BTW, combining wine and food in the mouth at the same time would no doubt provide some insight, but I don't see it as a very helpful way to experiment, simply because people don't really eat and drink that way.

[David M. Bueker]

I believe a truly great wine/food match is rare, but they are out there. Some of the classics are known as classics for that very reason. Sancerre with goat cheese is sublime. Port with roasted almonds of Stilton is great as well. There is no question that grilled beef and Cabernet (especially Bordeaux IMO) is a great match. One of the keys is simplicity. When you have a dish with 18 different flavors going on something is bound to clash. But give me roasted lamb with herbs and a bottle of Bandol or Chateauneuf du Pape & I am a happy man.

Any 'excrement' experiences to share that you have come across with wine-food pairing?

You can get that experience w/ any Coturri wine. Best of all...you don't need any food to pair it to give it that taste!!!
Of course, food, and particularly, cheese can have a dramatic effect on most any wine. Some foods just totally clash w/
a wine. Oftentimes, the food greatly changes the wine, oftentimes in a neutral wine. But I find it very rare that
you get that synergistic experience, where the food dramatically improves a wine.
Just my experience, anyway.
Tom (being a very bad boy on a very snowy Thurs evening)

Any 'excrement' experiences to share that you have come across with wine-food pairing?

You can get that experience w/ any Coturri wine. Best of all...you don't need any food to pair it to give it that taste!!!

OK, that was a pretty good one.

Any 'excrement' experiences to share that you have come across with wine-food pairing?

You can get that experience w/ any Coturri wine. Best of all...you don't need any food to pair it to give it that taste!!!
Of course, food, and particularly, cheese can have a dramatic effect on most any wine. Some foods just totally clash w/
a wine. Oftentimes, the food greatly changes the wine, oftentimes in a neutral wine. But I find it very rare that
you get that synergistic experience, where the food dramatically improves a wine.
Just my experience, anyway.
Tom (being a very bad boy on a very snowy Thurs evening)

That was mean! The guy does his best under unsanitary conditions...

Another way to look at the topic of this post, one that certainly seems borne out my my experience, is that there is a range of acid/sweet balances that interact differently with food, going from "gastronomic" wines that are more acid than sweet before food and only come into balance after the fattiness of the food buffers the acidity, and what could be called standalone wines, where the food can actually generate a sensation of disequilibrium between acidity and sweetness (many of the high octane reds might fall into the latter category).

BTW, combining wine and food in the mouth at the same time would no doubt provide some insight, but I don't see it as a very helpful way to experiment, simply because people don't really eat and drink that way.

But they do, Ben, they do.

There are those who will take some wine in their mouth while food is in their mouth and they think this is what everyone does, and there are those (like me) who eats some food, takes some wine, maybe has some water, eats some food and would never dream of adding wine to the food already in my mouth and never dreamt that other people did.

I am very sceptical of the whole food and wine matching thing but realise now that others mmay be experiencing the wine in a much closer proximity to food than I am.

There are those who will take some wine in their mouth while food is in their mouth and they think this is what everyone does, and there are those (like me) who eats some food, takes some wine, maybe has some water, eats some food and would never dream of adding wine to the food already in my mouth and never dreamt that other people did.

I am very sceptical of the whole food and wine matching thing but realise now that others mmay be experiencing the wine in a much closer proximity to food than I am.

I could have picked up a number of quotes from the replies (thank you all for them), especially those pointing out matters about the chemistry of food and wines, but in a way this sums it all up in very much the way I think.

My idea of raising the question of wine-food pairing from the obvious incompatibility of wine and food in the tastebuds at the same time seems interesting. To me it goes further to the fact that wine used in cooking may also be a disaster in unknowing hands. A wine-sauce can really destroy the taste of meat, because there the tastes co-exist, instead of being one after the other.

My pragmatic view is that in wine-food pairing (during a real-life dinner) either one must dominate. I prefer it to be the wine
With reds it's a much simpler equation than with whites. This may be due to the acidity in whites? Contrary to common belief, I prefer reds even with fish. Somehow it seems to be possible to regain clean receptors in the tastebuds with reds, so that even milder tastes of food are not intercepted by the wine. First a 'forkfull', and then a sip of the good red - that gives a jubilant feeling during dinner.

One thing that provoked me to this subject is my long-lasting hating of the wine journalism that gives this pairing seemingly self-evident recommendations. E.g. in Finland we are happy that our leading newspaper, Helsingin Sanomat, runs a section every Thursday on food, and occasionally also on wine & beers, etc. The formula is to have a blind tasting, which is fine. Good wines usually come up on their own merit. But it is ridiculous to read very, very specific meal recommendations to the wines when the wines were never tasted with food. I think that is, mostly, snobbery to the utmost.

-Hannu
P.S. I love pairing rich dark chocolate and a full-bodied red. Would be interesting to read WLDG views on this, too.

Test: try taking a mouthfull of any food, and a good sip of any wine into your mouth, and taste the combination in your mouth for a moment before swallowing. You can make that test with a wine & food combination you have appreciated earlier, or with a combination some guru has recommended, or just do the test randomly.

I had a friend once who insisted on this test as the gauge for whether a wine and food were well matched; I thought she was absolutely nuts. For me, wine-food pairing is about how the food prepares my taste buds for the wine to follow AND vice versa. Sometimes it's an almost seamless transition, and sometimes it's a pleasant contrast. But either way, the experience I'm looking for is one where each is better when alternated with the other and occasionally, that stratospheric, gift-from-heaven kind of a match. But in the same mouthful? That proves nothing as far as I'm concerned. Sorry, but you asked.

I agree with Jenise. I can't imagine many of us take a sip of wine with food actually in our mouths. I might even go so far as to call that bad etiquette.

I agree with Jenise. I can't imagine many of us take a sip of wine with food actually in our mouths. I might even go so far as to call that bad etiquette.

I totally agree with you, except for any snobby notions about bad etiquette

But it would be nice that you read the whole discussion.

[David M. Bueker]

Hannu,

What makes you think Ryan did not read the discussion? Or am I missing something?

Hannu,

What makes you think Ryan did not read the discussion? Or am I missing something?

It's obvious, isn't it? 1 is not 3, is it?
1. Mouth with food & wine together in it.
2. Cuisine.
3. Pairing of wine & food. (Without food & wine together in the mouth, if that needs to be repeated.)

Hannu, Hello....

And what, may I ask is wrong in observing the modern and common sense rules of etiquette in one's own society or of adapting to those of other societies? To some great extent modern concepts of decorum and propriety are based on the rules of fairness and justice. It may sound somewhat old fashioned (but it is not) to say that behaving as ladies and gentleman within one's appropriate setting is a most rewarding way of making life more pleasant and aesthetically appealing.

Indeed not everyone need know how to behave in the presence of royalty but one should know how to behave in good company. Or, when necessary, even in bad company.

Best
Rogov

It's obvious, isn't it? 1 is not 3, is it?
1. Mouth with food & wine together in it.
2. Cuisine.
3. Pairing of wine & food. (Without food & wine together in the mouth, if that needs to be repeated.)

Ahhhh....maybe I've had too much wine in my mouth tonight, together and without food, but it's not obvious to me. Even after that. I'm with David - Ryan's comment seemed completely in line with someone who'd followed the whole thread. Whether you agree with his position or not.

Oh, and count me in the camp of those who disagree with your original tenet. I believe wine does suit food, assuming one doesn't pair the wine with something that makes either one completely unpalatable (lemon vinaigrette and chianti for me, for instance). Taking a small amount of wine into the mouth while a small bit of food is in there can be a fascinating experience. Decorum be damned. Pop a bit of pear topped with gorgonzola, add Port, and chew. Experiencing the sensation of the Port losing some sweetness, the cheese losing some sharpness, and the pear melting into a more complex floral taste is one of life's great joys. And that's only one of innumerable wine/food combinations that sing of how well this "fruit of the vine, work of human feet" suits the foods we eat. I had lamb with an old Bordeaux two nights ago, and it was just as good as the hoary adage makes it out to be.

I think a large part of the problem is that many people sometimes subconsciously equate "unfamiliar" with "bad". Flavors are just that: flavors. They are not good or bad per se. Enjoying them is subjective, and it's often our minds that keep us from that enjoyment. Pair different wines with different foods, and rather than concentrating on your initial reaction focus on the reactions that are taking place and dancing around your tongue. And wonder that more people don't do that.

And now, back to my leftover birthday casatta and Marsala (GREAT together in the mouth)! Although after reading this disjointed ramble before hitting "Submit", I'm thinking I may have had a bit too much already....

[Jenise]

I agree with Jenise. I can't imagine many of us take a sip of wine with food actually in our mouths. I might even go so far as to call that bad etiquette.

You should have seen this woman I mentioned do it--then you'd know for sure you're not going out on a limb calling it bad etiquette.

"I believe that wine actually does not suit food!"

Poppycock. Talking for the sake of hearing the sound of one's own ravings methinks.

I am a late-comer to this interesting thread, so forgive me if a repeat points made by others or ignore certain aspects. Here is my take on on food and wine.

- For me, the main function of wine is to enrich a meal. I drink very little wine which is difficult to match with our regular food. Off-dry/sweet wines fall into this category though many, e.g. German Riesling and Loire demi-sec/moelleux, are delicious; so do block-busting international style reds but I don't think that I'm missing much here.

- I think that food and wine in the mouth at the same time is an eccentricity at best, though I have read somewhere that the eminent authority, Hugh Johnson, recommends it.

- Very few food/wine pairings are made in heaven (David mentions some) but quite a few are made in hell. The majority are in varying shades of adequate to good.

- Many wines, e.g. tannic reds, need appropriate food to bring them into balance.

- Many of the conventions are rubbish, e.g. only white wine with fish, only red wine with cheese.

- Cheese is usually quite difficult to match with wine; many, particularly soft textured and assertive cheeses like Camembert, kill many wines, red worse than white.

- I have never met a wine making food taste like excrement but I have often met food which make wine taste like urine.

[David M. Bueker]

I have often met food which make wine taste like urine.

Start with Sauvignon Blanc & it's not hard to make that happen.

I cannot ever recall tasting urine, so I'll take your word for that.

Bill, Hi.....

If ever you're hiking in the dessert or stranded on a lifeboat and run out of water, don't hesitate to drink your urine. The idea may be repulsive but for all practical purposes human urine is as close to sterile as one can get and unless one is suffering from several rather rare diseases, will do you no harm whatever. And, for the squeamish at heart, filtering urine through a loaf of bread makes it for all practical purposes odorless and tasteless.

As to drinking urine for pleasure.....well, that's a sexual thing that some people go for. Like you, I ain't one of those. I suppose I'll wait for that day on the lifeboat.

Best
Rogov