Loire-heads take note; RVF's top 100 Loire (Touraine) reds

Anjou reds (notably Saumur-Champigny) are not covered in this Revue du Vin de France article by Antoine Gerbelle.

The wines tasted were from 2005 and 2008. The wines are divided in four categories; "grands vins", keeping wines; fruity wines; discoveries.

In the "grands vins" category, the top 10 are -

B. Baudry - Chinon La Croix Boissée 08
Joguet - Chinon Clos de le Dioterie 08
Alliet - Coteau du Noiré 08
Dom. Chevalerie (Caslot) - Bourgueil Busardière 08
Château de Coulaine - Chinon La Diablesse 08
Joguet - Chinon Clos du Chêne Vert 08
Alliet - Chinon Vieilles Vignes 08
Ch. de Coulaine - Chinon Les Picasses 08
C & P Breton - Bourgueil Les Perrières 05
Joguet - Chinon Varennes du Grand Clos 08

Surprises are the absence of Yannick Amirault (but he has three wines in the 11th to 20th tranche), the strong showing of Joguet and the appearance of Château de Coulaine (not previously on my radar screen; something to be remedied).

In the keeping wines category, Lamé Delisle Boucard's Bourgueil Prestige 05 comes top, but only with the same score (15.5/20) as the 30th wine in the "grands vins" category.

The fruity wines category (for immediate drinking ) interests me more. Here B. Baudry figures twice in the top 10 with Chinon Les Grézeaux 08 and Chinon Franc de Pied 08 (about which Oswaldo wrote a lovely WTN). Y.Amirault's S-N Bourgeuil La Mine 08 and C&P Breton's Bourgueil Les Galichets 08 are also there.

In the discovery category, none of the estates are familiar to me. Top is Dom. du Carroi Portier Chinon L'Eloge du Solau.

Other unfamiliar estates singled out for praise are -
Dom. de la Cotelleraie - S-N-Bourgueil
Dom. Stéphane Guion - Bourgueil
Dom. Grosbois - Chinon
Dom. de la Dîme, Clos de l'Abbaye - Bourgueil

The wines tasted were from 2005 and 2008.

Why just those two vintages? Seems kind of random. And interesting that there were so many more 2008s on your list than 2005s. Is that because 2008s are more available? I didn't think it was supposed to be that much 'better' than 2005?

Other unfamiliar estates singled out for praise are -
Dom. de la Cotelleraie - S-N-Bourgueil
Dom. Stéphane Guion - Bourgueil
Dom. Grosbois - Chinon
Dom. de la Dîme, Clos de l'Abbaye - Bourgueil

The only estate there that I've heard of is Guion, which has only recently been imported to the States. If you check the Archives here you will see some notes and I think most of us agree that the wines are very good examples of their region/grape, not at all modern or glossy, and very good value, if not on the top level of the region.

In the discovery category, none of the estates are familiar to me. Top is Dom. du Carroi Portier Chinon L'Eloge du Solau.

Other unfamiliar estates singled out for praise are -
Dom. de la Cotelleraie - S-N-Bourgueil
Dom. Stéphane Guion - Bourgueil
Dom. Grosbois - Chinon
Dom. de la Dîme, Clos de l'Abbaye - Bourgueil

Some new names for me too. Thanks for keeping us Loire-heads on our toes Tim. Fat chance of me coming across most of these wines!

I will send a link to Jim, if that is OK?

Wow, this gets me excited for 2008. What is the word on this vintage? Despite the fact that I don't go to the Loire for fruit bombs, I'm a big fan of the 2005s.

And I'm also surprised about the Joguet wines. Has anybody tried any of these? Everything I've had from Joguet has been either 1. over-extracted and not "typical" and/or 2. smelled like a combination of a chicken coup and civil war hospital because of distrubingly high levels of Brett infection.

Still, like most Loire fans, I always keep tabs on Joguet because of its history. Perhaps it's time to pay attention to Joguet again?

Ed, I picked up some Joquet when last in London. I am eager to open when in the mood! Have to check which vintage though.

There are several points to address here.

The wines tasted were from 2005 and 2008.

Why just those two vintages? Seems kind of random. And interesting that there were so many more 2008s on your list than 2005s. Is that because 2008s are more available? I didn't think it was supposed to be that much 'better' than 2005?

.

I ask myself the same question. I think that it must be a question of availability. In some case the write-up about each wine praises the 05 above the 08, e.g. Bourgueill Busardière from Caslot which he rates the best 05 with an eloquent TN scoring 18/20 v. 17/20 for 08.

I will send a link to Jim, if that is OK?

Bob, by all means send a link to Jim. I am intending to post on the UK site tomorrow morning and I hope that Jim will comment there.

Wow, this gets me excited for 2008. What is the word on this vintage? Despite the fact that I don't go to the Loire for fruit bombs, I'm a big fan of the 2005s.

And I'm also surprised about the Joguet wines. Has anybody tried any of these? Everything I've had from Joguet has been either 1. over-extracted and not "typical" and/or 2. smelled like a combination of a chicken coup and civil war hospital because of distrubingly high levels of Brett infection.

Still, like most Loire fans, I always keep tabs on Joguet because of its history. Perhaps it's time to pay attention to Joguet again?

Ed, this is a loose translation of what the article says about 2008 -

A variable vintage with well coloured and lively wines, in which Cabernets which are green and dry are found side by side with those with a classy harmony and freshness. Even with the best there is a lack of the amplitude found in warm vintages. The Chinons are consistent, more structured than fruity showing firm finishes on chalky clay soils and are leaders in the vintage. 15.5/20

2005 is rated as a great year (17/20) with a warning about certain wines drying out. 2006 charming and supple (14.5/20). 2007 generally under-ripe but with fine tannins and some successes (13/20).

With regard to Joguet, I mentioned in another thread that they are going squeaky clean, I think from 2006 vintage, which is the one I tried in the presence of Jacques Genet, the commercial manager. That said, I think that there are very few French critics who would be as sensitive to brett, or to flavours which could be attributed to brett, as you are, Ed. I have very rarely been troubled by excess animal flavours on Joguet's wines but I do remember a very stinky bottle of Clos de la Cure 1995 alongside several others which were more than acceptable to me.

You might like the the wines of Yannick Amirault. He told me that he was trying to steer a steady course avoiding both under-ripe bell-pepper notes and also animal notes; he has a difficult task, he said, because the ripeness required to eliminate bell-pepper encourages animal flavours. He does not always succeed; after a succession of delicious, to me, bottles of S-N Bourgueil La Mine 05, the last about 18 months ago, after he had advised me to drink up, was too poopy even for me.

Thanks Tim, that's all great information. I've seen the argument floated that 2005 is "too ripe" and not a good vintage because not as "typical" as, say, 2004. I personally disagree with that argument.

I actually got my hands on Joguet's 2005 les Varennes du Grand Clos Franc de Pieds. Anybody get to taste this one?

And are you saying that there is a correlation between ripeness and Brett, or just ripeness and animal tastes? I don't mind animal tastes at all, as long as it's not Brett (if the animal taste comes from the grape or the terrior, this is fine, but Brett of course obfuscates terrior). I actually collect and cellar red Loire wines, and I've seen how Brett can bloom and ruin wines that tasted good--if a touch gamey--when young. Increasingly I'm beginning to understand that low-sulpher wine making, and natural wine making in general (popular in the Loire), corresponds with higher possibilities of Brett. This is a bit of a Catch-22 for me because I prefer the style implied by this non-interventionalist approach, but I can't stand Brett.

I've not tried Amirault but I'll see that that changes!

And are you saying that there is a correlation between ripeness and Brett, or just ripeness and animal tastes?

My guess is that it is not the ripeness per se, but rather the increased risk of rot/infection from leaving grapes on the vine for a longer period of time. The added sugars may also create issues during fermentation. But I'm not a winemaker.

i've visited nicolas grosbois. he is a few miles east of the town of chinon; and a very nice fellow. he worked in new zealand and oregon before being asked to come home and take over from his father. i like his wines.

Thanks for the post, Tim, very interesting. That Loire trip needs rescheduling!

The praise for Joguet is particularly intriguing, given the slamming the winery's been getting from traditionalists. I know nothing about Antoine Gerbelle, but I wonder if he isn't deliberately thumbing his nose at traditionalists by rewarding Joguet for "cleaning up their act" (assuming brett is more likely with traditionalist approaches, a controversial assumption, I am sure).

Ed, I didn't know that Joguet made a franc de pied, are all Varennes du Grand Clos ungrafted, or are there two kinds?

Rahsaan, I was wondering about funk = brett, as you suggested elsewhere, and echoed above. I am not particularly brett sensitive, or at least don't find it disagreable in the doses I usually encounter, so this identity had never occured to me. Do you pretty much think they are one and the same?

Ed, I didn't know that Joguet made a franc de pied, are all Varennes du Grand Clos ungrafted, or are there two kinds?

Joguet has two cuvees from Varennes du Grand Clos, one is the 'regular' and the other is Franc de Pied.

Rahsaan, I was wondering about funk = brett, as you suggested elsewhere, and echoed above. I am not particularly brett sensitive, or at least don't find it disagreable in the doses I usually encounter, so this identity had never occured to me. Do you pretty much think they are one and the same?

Well, 'funk' is one of those difficult terms that don't have precise definitions so I wouldn't say funk = brett. But, from my experience a lot of what people call funk is indeed brett, manifesting as gamey, animal-ey, or sweaty aromas/flavors. Perhaps there are other ways to use the word funk (some would probably use it in reference to sulfur) but when you mentioned it in the note for Thevenet, I assumed it was brett because they are known for being vulnerable to high levels of brett.

as for joguet - the franc de pieds has been pulled up for the obvious reasons. they told me that the last vintage was 2007 - which i bought. it is a very beautiful wine.

What Rahsaan said on both accounts.

As for Joguet, I heard that many Loire producers had to pull their ungrafted vines recently. I suppose this was a doomed experiment from the beginning.

What Rahsaan said on both accounts.

As for Joguet, I heard that many Loire producers had to pull their ungrafted vines recently. I suppose this was a doomed experiment from the beginning.

So sad. Luis Pato in Bairrada and the few left in Colares manage to maintain theirs by having a layer of sand over the topsoil. But if the solution were as easy as adding a layer of sand, I imagine they (and others) would have done it by now. But when I asked Pato why doesn't everybody do this, he said "that's a good question, I don't know the answer."

Rahsaan, makes sense. I never associate funk with sulfur, so it's more the barnyard kind, nearly always present in old Bordeaux, for example.

Rahsaan, I was wondering about funk = brett, as you suggested elsewhere, and echoed above. I am not particularly brett sensitive, or at least don't find it disagreable in the doses I usually encounter, so this identity had never occured to me. Do you pretty much think they are one and the same?

Well, 'funk' is one of those difficult terms that don't have precise definitions so I wouldn't say funk = brett. But, from my experience a lot of what people call funk is indeed brett, manifesting as gamey, animal-ey, or sweaty aromas/flavors. Perhaps there are other ways to use the word funk (some would probably use it in reference to sulfur) but when you mentioned it in the note for Thevenet, I assumed it was brett because they are known for being vulnerable to high levels of brett.

Some interesting drift here towards the brett issue. This is my take.

When I'm drinking a bottle with dinner, I don't ask myself whether funky notes are brett or not. I merely decide whether I enjoy them or not in the context of the wine as a whole. I particularly like leather and sweaty saddle notes unless they dominate everything else. I am less fond of barnyard which for me spoils in much lower concentrations.

Of course, when tasting a wine with a view to laying it down, it is more important to take a view as brett contamination tends to increase with age, though unevenly from bottle to bottle in my experience.

My attitude to VA is much the same; a little can enhance a wine's taste profile.

Some wine-lovers, judges and critics, particularly in the US and Australia, seem so indoctrinated that brett and VA are serious faults that any suspect odours, whether analytically brett/VA or not, disqualify a wine for them.

Rahsaan, makes sense. I never associate funk with sulfur, so it's more the barnyard kind, nearly always present in old Bordeaux, for example.

Ok, but somehow I don't think brett is nearly always present in old Bordeaux. I could be wrong. But I'm thinking that type of 'funk' may come from the tertiary aromas of very aged wine.

Some wine-lovers, judges and critics, particularly in the US and Australia, seem so indoctrinated that brett and VA are serious faults that any suspect odours, whether analytically brett/VA or not, disqualify a wine for them.

That's fair and true. And personally often I don't mind a little Brett when it manifests as game/animal (although I always sense those band-aid tastes right around the corner). I used to not care at all before I was "trained" to identify Brett by some MW candidates. The thing is, there's a lot of wine out there, and because Brett makes things taste more the same, glossing over the purer expression of a given individual wine, it is antithetical to terrior and therefore reduces the intellectual interest (if not the appreciation of the taste) for me. In most cases I'd just rather move on.

Forgive me, I'm on a bit of a crusade about this right now (I've already ranted about this this week) simply because recently I've had so many supposedly great aged bottles of wine--including many old Bordeauxs (I agree Oswaldo)--that were marred by Brett. This has been a revelation to me about critics and about the industry in general. So many of the wines that conventional wisdom say are great (mostly, that is, those wines established by Parker 15-20 years ago as great) are brett bombs. Maybe you'll get lucky and the Brett won't be exploding out of the glass when you open up that 30 year old Bordeaux you've been saving... or maybe you wont. Because Parker and the rest of the critics either can't determine brett in most cases, or don't care (e.g., Jancis says she can but that she doesn't mind Brett), we're left with this gamble. Even if you like brett, given that these critics are supposed to help make decisions about "collectible" and cellerable wines, I find this to be a huge problem

My most recent (and one of the most heartbreaking) example: a 1975 Haut Brion.

Apologies to all for the thread drift/hijacking!

The thing is, there's a lot of wine out there, and because Brett makes things taste more the same, glossing over the purer expression of a given individual wine, it is antithetical to terrior and therefore reduces the intellectual interest (if not the appreciation of the taste) for me. In most cases I'd just rather move on.

Ed, this one can be argued both ways. Brett can come partly from the grapes and also from ambient yeasts in wine-making cellars where inoculated cultured yeasts are spurned as unnatural. So it can be argued that it comes with the terroir. However, producers like Beaucastel, who used to be uncomplexed about a little brett, are now trying to minimise it, I'm not sure how.

Coincidentally, tonight's Bordeaux, Ch. Labégorce-Zédé 99, had a streak of barnyard and, with this conversation in the background, I had to shake myself to avoid feeling guilty about enjoying it. It still tasted like an elegant Médoc but some of the Margaux fragrance seemed a bit compromised. I'll post a WTN and will still rate it quite highly.

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Ed, this one can be argued both ways. Brett can come partly from the grapes and also from ambient yeasts in wine-making cellars where inoculated cultured yeasts are spurned as unnatural. So it can be argued that it comes with the terroir. However, producers like Beaucastel, who used to be uncomplexed about a little brett, are now trying to minimise it, I'm not sure how.

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I see this argument, and it's one often made in CdP for instance. But if you allow that Brett is a part of the land and therefore not antithetical to terrior, it's still antithetical to the articulation of individual differences between wines/regions. It's like adding the same "ingredient" to a wine regardless where it's from. Again to me this decreases my intellectual interest in the wine because it tastes more like brett (which I could get in any wine/region) and, per force and obviously, less like the same wine/region without brett.

But of course I'm not trying to argue that you shouldn't like Brett! And this is not to say that a wine has no intellectual interest just because it has some Brett (just less then it would potentially/ideally without brett). I just wish critics were more transparent about whether or not it's there.

I think we've pretty much exhausted this topic but I will nonetheless add a few more cents of my own in support of Tim's view about the excessive focus on 'flaws' in wine.

Now I'm not defending brett or VA as I am pretty sensitive to both elements and do find that many of the 'natural' wines from the Loire taste alike (in a bad way) because of these problems. But, at the same time I get irritated by the New World Indoctrinated folks who start proclaiming about 'flaws' in wine as if every wine had to flow from the same script.

In my view, the only 'flaw' in wine is TCA. Otherwise, wine is not like a car that is supposed to drive you safely from point A to point B and is flawed if it doesn't. Wine is a living breathing product and full of subjective interpretation. There are many pathways to appreciation of wine and they are all pretty much subjective. Especially since lab analyses can't even explain to us why we like the stuff in the first place!

I very much agree with this and don't see it as inconsistent with my argument. Heck, I think the gobbification of wine with new oak and over-ripe and over-extracted product is a worse "flaw" than is Brett, but the UC Davis folks I'm sure don't have this on their shortlist. But the fact that there is no absolute model to appeal to in determining "flaws" doesn't let Brett off the hook.

Rahsaan, to bring this thread full-circle, do you have any recommendations for Loire producers that are more or less consistently brett free?

I've had good luck with Breton, Clos du tue Bouef, Puzzelat, Belliviere, and Briseau, but then again most of what I've had from these producers didn't see oak.

Ive had mixed luck with Baudry, but I'll keep going back anyways because they are amazing.

I've had bad luck with: Clos Roche Blanche, Alliet, Joguet, Clos Rougeard.

Rahsaan, to bring this thread full-circle, do you have any recommendations for Loire producers that are more or less consistently brett free?

The folks who use sulfur!

I've had good luck with Breton, Clos du tue Bouef, Puzzelat, Belliviere, and Briseau, but then again most of what I've had from these producers didn't see oak...Ive had mixed luck with Baudry, but I'll keep going back anyways because they are amazing...I've had bad luck with: Clos Roche Blanche, Alliet, Joguet, Clos Rougeard.

You've mentioned some of my favorite producers of Loire red wine: Breton, CRB, Baudry, and Rougeard. I think they can all have various degrees of brett but I believe they all use some sulfur (except of course for the Breton Nuits d'Ivresse) and the wines are usually pretty recognizeable and distinct even if every cuvee isn't as successful as the others. Puzelat/Tue Boeuf are a bit more 'natural' and some of their cuvees are pretty wild, but in the scheme of things I believe they have started using more sulfur and seeking more stability in comparison to the 'newer' 'even-hipper' producers like Cousin, Lemasson, Villemade, Mosse, etc, whose wines are often an absolute horror show of brett and VA, IMHO

So, if those producers you mentioned are too bretty for you then I'm not sure who to suggest on the red side. Especially since I have fallen out of step with the Loire red wines in recent years. Hopefully someone else can chime in.

But, if you want to buy chenin then of course you have plenty of options. Starting at the top with Huet and Foreau and then working your way down while avoiding anything 'natural' or 'hip'