WTN: France offers the best QPR? Not Burg but Loire & Rhône.

The first four wines help to support my contention that France remains the country where one finds the greatest concentration of fine wines at reasonable prices for discerning but not wealthy wine lovers as well as some of the world’s most prestigious and expensive wines. Even from Italy, I doubt if I could fill a week’s drinking with such variedly fine and characterful wines at prices of less than €17 (the first only €8).

The fifth was the least satisfactory although by far the most expensive (c. €70 for a current vintage) coming from Burgundy, the most prestigious region in this group.

Jurançon sec 2006 – Domaine Clos Lapeyre – In June I wrote it showed masses of citrus and white fruit, minerals and bracingly crisp acidity with a slightly green finish and was not really suitable for the sole with which I paired it. On this showing I find it less appealing than the honeyed and more complex Clos Marie from Charles Hours but may revise my opinion with a better pairing; 15.5/20.. Last night it went much better with “dorade” topped by salty and iodine filled Norman oysters which concealed its green streak; this, however, revealed itself again when accompanying a firm and tasty Swedish cheese; 15.5/20+++ with the dorade QPR.

CDRV Cairanne Cuvée Prestige 2003 – Domaine de l’Oratoire Saint-Martin – Alc. 13.5%, 60% Grenache and 40% Mourvèdre, was another success from one of my favourite Southern Rhône estates; full bodied and gutsy with dark fruit, leather and tar with good shape on the palate and mercifully free of the frequent 2003 candied and cooked notes; 16.5/20 QPR.

Chinon Vielles Vignes 1998 – Philippe Alliet – Alc. 12.5%. 1998 has a mediocre reputation in the Loire valley but I have now had several including this one which were excellent 10+ years from the vintage; medium bodied and beautifully balanced with tangy fresh red fruit, a nice herbaceous edge, minerals, lively acidity and enough tannic support for the finish; 16.5/20 QPR.

Savennières Cuvée Spécial 1995 – Château d’Epiré – Alc.13%. This bottle comes from a purchase of 3 dozen assorted mid-90s from this estate which hitherto have mostly proved unsatisfactory; dull at best and oxidised at worst. This bottle together with a 96 CS a couple of years ago were much better reprieving the remainder from EBay and raising hopes that they will delight me much more than the earlier bottles. There were was a pleasant nuttiness mingled with minerals, wax and burnished white fruit in the discreet aromas and a classically shaped medium bodied palate showing good freshness and complexity combined with a slight burnish and good grip on the finish; attractive now in a restrained style which perhaps decanting would have opened up further; 16/20 (not QPR because 10 years+ idle money and several dud bottles cannot be overlooked).

Pommard 1er cru Clos des Épeneaux 1994 – Comte Armand – Alc. 13.5% This wine was considered at the outset an excellent effort in an “off” Burgundian vintage but none of my bottles have overwhelmed me, this last one least of all. Colour was deep and still vigorous but there was an impure note in the aromas, particularly on the nose, lying behind dark cherry laced with wet leather and faint liquorice; perhaps a dab of boiled cabbage is the best descriptor, though it is less marked sniffing the nearly empty bottle as I write this note. The palate was full bodied, quite rich and powerful and dark fruited with firm somewhat bitter tannic support towards the finish pushing the aromas into the background; I felt a certain hardness and lack of velvet in the mouth-feel but Germaine disagreed and indeed liked the wine a lot more than I did; at most 15/20 for me.

Tim,

I'd be stunned if anyone disagreed with your position. Were you expecting disagreement?

Jurançon sec 2006 – Domaine Clos Lapeyre – In June I wrote it showed masses of citrus and white fruit, minerals and bracingly crisp acidity with a slightly green finish and was not really suitable for the sole with which I paired it. On this showing I find it less appealing than the honeyed and more complex Clos Marie from Charles Hours but may revise my opinion with a better pairing; 15.5/20.. Last night it went much better with “dorade” topped by salty and iodine filled Norman oysters which concealed its green streak; this, however, revealed itself again when accompanying a firm and tasty Swedish cheese; 15.5/20+++ with the dorade QPR.

Tim -- I've always thought of Jurancon as having good QPR, and have never had a bad one yet from about a half-dozen bottles from various producers over the years. They are just so darned hard to find in my neck of the woods.

Tim,

I'd be stunned if anyone disagreed with your position. Were you expecting disagreement?

Tom, I wasn't expecting a lot of dissent from people on this board except from the odd Italophile or Hispanophile. But I think that it's a point worth making nevertheless. I am tired of reading statements in the general press (even in WS, I think, at the time I still subscribed) to the effect that France is only good for making high priced trophy wines and that Mr Everyman has to look elsewhere, usually to Chile or Australia, for good QPR. In the UK this belief is fostered with the help of some toady journalists by supermarkets and wine chains which sell wines made in large quantities, tasting much the same year in year out often to the supermarket's own specifications.

Good French artisan producers are too individualistic to bend to this, vintage variation means different tastes and lastly production is too small. For those who take the trouble to look beyond the supermarkets and chains, most of the greatest values are found in France.

Back after sick-leave, good to read Tim calling it the way it is! I have to think that France has the bigger content in my cellar.

Brief weather report for today Sunday, minus 42! It is tough helping Anastasia keep her horses in good shape when one has a miserable cold. One is me, not the gee-gee!!

Tim,

I'd be stunned if anyone disagreed with your position. Were you expecting disagreement?

Tom, I wasn't expecting a lot of dissent from people on this board except from the odd Italophile or Hispanophile. But I think that it's a point worth making nevertheless. I am tired of reading statements in the general press (even in WS, I think, at the time I still subscribed) to the effect that France is only good for making high priced trophy wines and that Mr Everyman has to look elsewhere, usually to Chile or Australia, for good QPR. In the UK this belief is fostered with the help of some toady journalists by supermarkets and wine chains which sell wines made in large quantities, tasting much the same year in year out often to the supermarket's own specifications.

Good French artisan producers are too individualistic to bend to this, vintage variation means different tastes and lastly production is too small. For those who take the trouble to look beyond the supermarkets and chains, most of the greatest values are found in France.

I still find it amazing that importers can bring a delicious Rhone or Provencal or Loire wine across the ocean, across the North American continent, and to local wine shops like K&L or Back Room Wines or Terroir (or Kermit Lynch) and sell them for such a wonderful price. whereas California wines in the sub $25 category are often just so AWFUL. IMO only of course , and there are of course exceptions (thanks for Steve's Gamay Noire)

Tim,

I'd be stunned if anyone disagreed with your position. Were you expecting disagreement?

Tom, I wasn't expecting a lot of dissent from people on this board except from the odd Italophile or Hispanophile. But I think that it's a point worth making nevertheless. I am tired of reading statements in the general press (even in WS, I think, at the time I still subscribed) to the effect that France is only good for making high priced trophy wines and that Mr Everyman has to look elsewhere, usually to Chile or Australia, for good QPR. In the UK this belief is fostered with the help of some toady journalists by supermarkets and wine chains which sell wines made in large quantities, tasting much the same year in year out often to the supermarket's own specifications.

Good French artisan producers are too individualistic to bend to this, vintage variation means different tastes and lastly production is too small. For those who take the trouble to look beyond the supermarkets and chains, most of the greatest values are found in France.

I still find it amazing that importers can bring a delicious Rhone or Provencal or Loire wine across the ocean, across the North American continent, and to local wine shops like K&L or Back Room Wines or Terroir (or Kermit Lynch) and sell them for such a wonderful price. whereas California wines in the sub $25 category are often just so AWFUL. IMO only of course , and there are of course exceptions (thanks for Steve's Gamay Noire)

Brian, start with the price of property in the "wine country" and then add all the other costs compared to nowhere Italy or France. Bordeaux, burg, etc are expensive also.

" I still find it amazing that importers can bring a delicious Rhone or Provencal or Loire wine across the ocean, across the North American continent, and to local wine shops like K&L or Back Room Wines or Terroir (or Kermit Lynch) and sell them for such a wonderful price. whereas California wines in the sub $25 category are often just so AWFUL. IMO only of course , and there are of course exceptions (thanks for Steve's Gamay Noire)


Brian, start with the price of property in the "wine country" and then add all the other costs compared to nowhere Italy or France. Bordeaux, burg, etc are expensive also."

My sense is that the difference is not always the actually price/value of the vineyards, but rather the amortization. A large portion of European vineyards are worked by families or companies which have owned the land for centuries, they apparently see no need to account for the presumed carrying cost of their multi-million Euro property to their P&L, whereas a California grower who sunk millions into their property perhaps a decade ago expects their customer to help with the mortgage.

My sense is that the difference is not always the actually price/value of the vineyards, but rather the amortization. A large portion of European vineyards are worked by families or companies which have owned the land for centuries, they apparently see no need to account for the presumed carrying cost of their multi-million Euro property to their P&L, whereas a California grower who sunk millions into their property perhaps a decade ago expects their customer to help with the mortgage.

Steve, I don't quite understand this argument. In most jurisdictions land is about the only asset class which cannot usually be amortised in accounts and rightly so. Except in one or two years of recession, I doubt, for example, if the value of prime vineyard land has done anything other than increase; the value of some mass producing vineyards may have gone down but these do not produce the wines we like.

Borrowings costs are, of course, chargeable and it may look as if the family producer, who has inherited, has much less of these. He has, however, other costs and problems not least those derived from French inheritance law, i.e. the need to divide equally between the offspring and savage inheritance taxes (droits de succession). In many cases I guess that the heir running the family wine business has had to buy out brothers and sisters who are not interested in it or has split with those who are or has mortgaged the property to pay the inheritance taxes or a bit of all three.

Many family estates have been sold because of these problems; in prestige Bordeaux vineyards, luxury goods and insurance companies as well as multi-millionaires from other disciplines have stepped in but this hardly applies in less prestigious regions. Another family buying in has exactly the same problems as a Californian new to the business.

In any case, the argument implies that the producer dictates the price, not the market.

I think similar value can be found in Italy, although there may not be as many serious importers bringing those kinds of wines to your local market.

But no disagreement on the value of the Loire and the Rhone. It really is ridiculous and at times is almost enough to make me reconsider buying Burgundy

I think similar value can be found in Italy, although there may not be as many serious importers bringing those kinds of wines to your local market.

Yeah, that's the trouble with those damned Italians. They just can't stay serious!

They just can't stay serious!

Who said the importers have to be Italian!

I think similar value can be found in Italy, although there may not be as many serious importers bringing those kinds of wines to your local market.

Far be it from me to knock Italy. Indeed I have just posted a WTN about some good QPR Italian reds at a small importer (the prices of the large importers are quite pretentious). I'm not sure that Italy offers quite the variety in reds; France does Northern European; Atlantic and Mediterranean styles. However, within its peninsular, Italy does also show a lot of diversity ranging from Barolo (hardly QPR though), through Chianti to Nero d'Avola and Etna, so it's a close run thing.

Where France scores is in its whites. Although Italian whites have made enormous progress in the last two decades and I love some Soave, Verdicchio, Greco di Tufo and so on, I don't put these on a plane with Loire Chenin and Alsatian Riesling, where real class can be found from about €15, and great Chablis for a bit more. Whites from the South of France made from varieties like Viognier, Marsanne, Roussanne, Clairette, Grenache blanc and Macabeu are making great progress too.

I'm not sure that Italy offers quite the variety in reds; France does Northern European; Atlantic and Mediterranean styles. However, within its peninsular, Italy does also show a lot of diversity...

That's an understatement. France may have Northern European, Altantic, and Mediterranean (with a few things inbetween of course), but Italy has Northern European, Adriatic, and Mediterranean, with tons of stuff inbetween. From Friuli down to Sicily there is a lot going on, and if one wants to quantify things I believe Italy would win hands down in the number of indigenous grape varieties. But I agree France may "win" for whites.

All that said, I rarely buy Italian wines these days because I just don't have the time to add them to my core list of regions to follow. But that's really more of a strategic thing than a palate thing.

That's an understatement. France may have Northern European, Altantic, and Mediterranean (with a few things inbetween of course), but Italy has Northern European, Adriatic, and Mediterranean, with tons of stuff inbetween. From Friuli down to Sicily there is a lot going on, and if one wants to quantify things I believe Italy would win hands down in the number of indigenous grape varieties. But I agree France may "win" for whites.

I am not denying Italian diversity in reds but I wouldn't say that Italy had any Northern European style wines, by which I mean North of the Alps, like Burgundy and Loire valley, Champagne, Germany, Austria; I suppose that Langhe and Friuli are the nearest approach to that. As to the number of native red grape varieties, you may be right that Italy has more than France (and maybe Spain more than both), but when it comes to wines which I regularly drink, I have done a rapid count of 10 native red varieties in both France and Italy. Of course, Italy does make some excellent wines from French varieties, whereas the vice versa does not apply.

Interestingly, our host at last Saturday's Italian tasting stated that ordinary Italian wine drinkers have a preference for wines made from French varieties, particularly Cabernet and Merlot, which they find easier drinking than wines from the more severe Italian varieties like Nebbiolo, Sangiovese and Aglianico. I don't know his source for this but regret it if it leads to more dumbing down and internationalised wines.

I am not denying Italian diversity in reds but I wouldn't say that Italy had any Northern European style wines, by which I mean North of the Alps, like Burgundy and Loire valley, Champagne, Germany, Austria; I suppose that Langhe and Friuli are the nearest approach to that..

Teroldego from Trentino and Lagrein from Sudtirol seem pretty northerly/alpine to me.

Alto Adige and northern Piemonte DOCs (I'm thinking Ferrando's Carema here) might do, too.

Alto Adige and northern Piemonte DOCs (I'm thinking Ferrando's Carema here) might do, too.

And Val d'Aosta.

Lombardy?

Lombardy?

Valtellina, perhaps, but certainly not appellations South of Milan. Aosta, Alto Adige, etc. are wines from an Alpine climate, like Valais in Switzerland; often very hot during the day in the steep sided Alpine valleys but cold winters and cool nights. Not really like a North of Alps climate.

Incidentally France has some very good and little known Alpine wines in Savoy.