Wht to serve with a Cloudy Bay SB

I have an up coming tasting party and would like to serve the Cloudy bay. It will be one of 8 wines served. What would you serve with this wine


Gary

What would you serve with any other SB?
Cloudy Bay is good SB, but in another sense it's just a NZ SB.
It's good with quiche, crab Louis (Dungeness crab is just coming into season here , most white fish or shellfish dishes, salads that aren't laden with an acidic dressing.

John

What would you serve with any other SB?
Cloudy Bay is good SB, but in another sense it's just a NZ SB.
It's good with quiche, crab Louis (Dungeness crab is just coming into season here , most white fish or shellfish dishes, salads that aren't laden with an acidic dressing.
John

When I first saw this question, I thought I should answer, but then I decided that as a newbie, discretion was the better part of valor (unlike me ).

However what I was tempted to say was almost exactly the same as the first part of your reply. Cloudy Bay is a Sauvignon Blanc, full of varietal character. Concentrated and long, it's a very good fruit forward SB. I confess that I don't know Crab Louis, but a potted crab would be pretty good with it, and have enough oomph to stand up to the power. http://www.wineloverspage.com/forum/village/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=26894&start=120#p241763%20 I think I'd prefer to serve it with a well flavoured but not too subtle shellfish dish than a delicate white fish, but I would be interested to try it against smoked arctic char, for example, which I'm told (never tasted it) is full of flavour.

The only thing in your reply with which I'm tempted to disagree is the implicit dismissal in your "just a NZ SB" (perhaps I misunderstood). I have to say that I think that NZ SBs have become the yardstick against which others are now measured. At one time (we'll draw a veil over the largely over sulphured, over wooded excesses of "Bordeaux blanc sec" of the 70s and '80s) Pouilly Fumé and then Sancerre were the reference, but I don't think they are any more. While I accept that many are merely cash cows, there are also loads that are wonderful wines. I'm sure Mark will agree that we were astonished at the age-ability of the grape, when well made. I also have to say that I have a marked preference for the SBs from Hawkes Bay over those from Marlborough, but that's a matter of personal taste.

I have to say that I think that NZ SBs have become the yardstick against which others are now measured. At one time (we'll draw a veil over the largely over sulphured, over wooded excesses of "Bordeaux blanc sec" of the 70s and '80s) Pouilly Fumé and then Sancerre were the reference, but I don't think they are any more..

It depends who you are talking about?

I laugh everytime I see people refer to NZ SB as the reference, although I admit it may be more and more common, especially among New Worlders (curious if you've seen the same trend in France? I would expect not).

But just because NZ SB now sells a lot, and is very good at what it does, doesn't make it the reference point for me. It is now a fully developed style in its own, that stands next to Sancerre and Pouilly Fume as distinct examples of what SB can do. But it's still so new and therefore Sancerre and Pouilly Fume will always be the 'classic' examples of the grape. At least to me. But then I've never claimed to be in touch!

Adding on, as with the development of any artform, it's difficult to appreciate the new without understanding what came before it. So someone who only drinks NZ SB will not even understand the broader context of what its exuberance adds to the grape without tasting the 'classic' versions from the eastern Loire. And then one can also gain insight into the newer styles from the Loire.

Of course this analogy breaks down in the sense that older artists are dead and finished but let's hope that SB from the eastern Loire is far from dead and finished!

Hi Rahsaan

You said:-

But just because NZ SB now sells a lot, and is very good at what it does, doesn't make it the reference point for me. It is now a fully developed style in its own, that stands next to Sancerre and Pouilly Fume as distinct examples of what SB can do. But it's still so new and therefore Sancerre and Pouilly Fume will always be the 'classic' examples of the grape. At least to me. But then I've never claimed to be in touch!

Yes, I see what you mean, but if you consider the quality and range of different SB based wines available from New Zealand, I think they are much more representative of the possibilities of the grape than Sancerre and Pouilly Fumé have ever been excellent though they have always been and still are. But I don't think that's the only criterion. Worldwide, I think you'll find many more wine lovers who, when asked the question "Sauvignon Blanc?" will instantly think of New Zealand wines, rather than these two Loire villages. That would, for me make it the reference, even without the first point I made.

You're of course entirely right that in France that wouldn't be true, but then France is so incredibly protectionist that I don't think one should pay much attention to what they say!! About half the population here have heard that they make some quite good wines in California and the odd Frenchman knows that the new world makes some wines, "thanks to the know how of the French and thanks to French grape varieties" (with the implication that somehow their wines doesn't count for that reason).

Just seen your follow-om post.
I agree with you that in a sense, one's understanding of the new can be enhanced by knowing the old, and I'd hate to have to do without either. But I think that a "point of reference" can change. Think of a great church. For many years, it will have been the point of reference in a town but when it becomes surrounded by great skyscrapers, it is no longer, despite still existing and being no less meritorious in its own right.

The reference point? Perhaps not.
A reference point and a highly successful regional style, with (still) ever increasing copyists - most probably.

As to Cloudy Bay itself, as a wine it's always been pretty good and typically offered something extra beyond the norm. However it's been cleverly hyped - in a way that perhaps will earn it's place in history as much in Marketing courses at college, as in the annals of great wines of the world.

I like it, but apart from looking out for the odd bottle for a good friend who adores it, it's always priced too high here. At £10-12 it would be fine value, at £13-£15 the value becomes stretched. At £16-£20 or above, it's well worth testing out alternatives such as Goldwater, Astrolabe, Isabel, etc. and indeed ex-Cloudy Bay creator Kevin Judd has launched a new label with no shortage of trade enthusiasm for it.

regards

Ian

if you consider the quality and range of different SB based wines available from New Zealand, I think they are much more representative of the possibilities of the grape than Sancerre and Pouilly Fumé have ever been excellent though they have always been and still are.

Well if you're talking about range, then we can't compare NZ (a country) to Sancerre and PF (villages). Those two appellations were famous these past 100 years because they could easily sell their cheap stuff to Parisian bistros, but sauvignon blanc is grown many places in France and there is a range of styles there as well.

The issue of 'representative' is tricky, because it assumes there is an essence to represent. And our difference in standards/references shows that we differ in our conception of what that essence is. Perhaps in a few hundred years things will be different, but right now I think we're still in a period where the New World is an offshoot of the classic European regions and needs to be understood in that context.

But I don't think that's the only criterion. Worldwide, I think you'll find many more wine lovers who, when asked the question "Sauvignon Blanc?" will instantly think of New Zealand wines, rather than these two Loire villages. That would, for me make it the reference, even without the first point I made.

Populism will get you nowhere with me. Lots of people may cite Britney Spears as a great entertainer but that only makes her the 'reference' for certain people without any historical knowledge.

But I think that a "point of reference" can change. Think of a great church. For many years, it will have been the point of reference in a town but when it becomes surrounded by great skyscrapers, it is no longer, despite still existing and being no less meritorious in its own right.

Indeed. As we know, winemaking did not begin in France and there were other historical references besides France (or even Italy and Germany). Things change.

Hi Rahsaan

if you consider the quality and range of different SB based wines available from New Zealand, I think they are much more representative of the possibilities of the grape than Sancerre and Pouilly Fumé have ever been excellent though they have always been and still are.

Well if you're talking about range, then we can't compare NZ (a country) to Sancerre and PF (villages). Those two appellations were famous these past 100 years because they could easily sell their cheap stuff to Parisian bistros, but sauvignon blanc is grown many places in France and there is a range of styles there as well.

Yes and no, the Marlborough and Hawkes Bay areas are not that enormous, possibly comparable to the eastern Loire where SB is grown. While I agree entirely that the grape is grown elsewhere (and in fact we're opening one such tonight, "Ch Tour des Gendres Bergerac Blanc sec") in quite a few, they are increasingly seeking to emulate what they see to be New World style SBs. Grassy, gooseberries fresh... To my mind that shows that even if Mr man in the street in France doesn't have much idea about New World wines, the winemakers most certainly do.

The issue of 'representative' is tricky, because it assumes there is an essence to represent. And our difference in standards/references shows that we differ in our conception of what that essence is. Perhaps in a few hundred years things will be different, but right now I think we're still in a period where the New World is an offshoot of the classic European regions and needs to be understood in that context.

Yes, I'd not thought of it quite in that way, but you're right that one does have to have a mental image of an essence if one's going to represent it. You put your finger on our differences with admirable precision. I don't think that we're still in that period with respect to SB based wines. For many other wines, perhaps.

Worldwide, I think you'll find many more wine lovers who, when asked the question "Sauvignon Blanc?" will instantly think of New Zealand wines, rather than these two Loire villages. That would, for me make it the reference, even without the first point I made.

Populism will get you nowhere with me.

Nor with me!! Oh dear. I'll have to think further on why I think it's relevant.

Ian,
>> The only thing in your reply with which I'm tempted to disagree is the implicit dismissal in your "just a NZ SB" (perhaps I misunderstood).

I do tend to be a bit terse sometimes. I intended to differentiate Cloudy Bay from French, Chilean, or California SBs, and to make the point that, while it's very good wine, it isn't something as remarkable as, say, Chateau d'Yquem is compared to typical Sauternes.

Several others made my point more elegantly.

FYI, crab Louis is sort of a California specialty salad, and Dungeness crab is the native crab that people eat, of the northern Pacific coast of North America. The salad consists of a bed of romaine topped with crab meat, sliced egg, sliced tomato, and often other tidbits such as a couple of anchovy strips or dill pickle or a few good olives, and topped with a dressing that's a creamier version of a Thousand Island dressing. SB is a good choice, especially if you skip the dill pickle.

John

The last time I served SB Sancere it was with cherry Heirloom tomatos tossed in a basil oil and topped with a fresh Mozzarella di bufala. It was a great pairing.
From what I remember about the Cloudy bay, it is much more fruit forward and a much bigger nose. Would grilled asparagus tossed in a light lemon gralic olive oil dressing with chopped egg on top work?
I have a few guests that would rather not have the crab.
Gary

Gary,
Asparagus is one of those vegetables that has a reputation of being hard to match with wine. For myself, I'm of the "eat what's put before me" persuasion, and I do like asparagus. Even so, I'll admit that a wooded Chardonnay and Asparagus, or Beaujolais and asparagus, don't particularly do each other a favor.

The grilled asparagus with chopped egg might serve. I'd expect the tomatoes with fresh basil and mozzarella would be better, though.
Hmm..... A salad of greens with slices of chicken breast and a light tarragon vinaigrette might work, too.

Please don't take me too seriously! I've only had a couple of bottles of Cloudy Bay! "Grass and gooseberry" is what my notes say at the core.

John

Hi John,
Thanks for coming back.

Ian,
>> The only thing in your reply with which I'm tempted to disagree is the implicit dismissal in your "just a NZ SB" (perhaps I misunderstood).

I do tend to be a bit terse sometimes. I intended to differentiate Cloudy Bay from French, Chilean, or California SBs, and to make the point that, while it's very good wine, it isn't something as remarkable as, say, Chateau d'Yquem is compared to typical Sauternes.

Ah.. I see. Thanks for explaining that. I have to be honest and say that I am hard put to it to think of a SB based wine that I would rank as utterly outstanding to the extent that it defines the genre. (If your self described characteristic is to be terse, mine is to be longwinded and verbose!) Didier Dagueneau's Pouilly Fumé (Silex) is often cited as being a benchmark, but I still wouldn't say that it was that far above the best of the rest. Running with your example, I think that's true of Yquem too. It's not that Yquem is head and shoulders above the rest in any one year, it is that it is consistently one of the best. Try Cuvée Madame from Bruno & Sylvie Bilancini's Ch Tirecul-la-Gravière, now that IS an order better than the rest. But it is a muscadelle wine, not SB.

Thinking about this, although in any area there may be one wine which fetches a premium price (Romanée-Conti, Le Pin, Grange, etc) I am unsure that it's because it is miles better than the rest, but it's because it's perceived to be by the wealthy, and the law of supply and demand hikes the price. I think we agree that Cloudy Bay is to some extent subject to this phenomenon. So it's fair to say that Claudy Bay is "merely" one (very good) SB amongst many others, and in that sense I agree completely.

FYI, crab Louis is sort of a California specialty salad, and Dungeness crab is the native crab that people eat, of the northern Pacific coast of North America. The salad consists of a bed of romaine topped with crab meat, sliced egg, sliced tomato, and often other tidbits such as a couple of anchovy strips or dill pickle or a few good olives, and topped with a dressing that's a creamier version of a Thousand Island dressing. SB is a good choice, especially if you skip the dill pickle.
John

Thanks for the explanation. I thought (and perhaps hoped) it might be a hot crab dish, because that would be ideal against a crisp cold Cloudy Bay. What say you?

>> I thought (and perhaps hoped) it might be a hot crab dish, because that would be ideal against a crisp cold Cloudy Bay. What say you?
A hot shellfish dish would be good. If I were on the east coast of the US, I'd think of fried soft-shell crab. Asian style salt-roasted shrimp would be good, too.
I'm such a fan of fresh, cold Dungeness crab that I almost never make something hot with it. I guess it's all in what you grow up eating.

John

Thanks for all of the input.

From what I am reading there are bigger, better, more fantastic producers then Cloudy Bay? Please it most be available on the west coast of the U.S. I was looking for a CB because I was under the impression that it was one of the very best. I guess I figured wrong. The reason my group is looking for a NZ Sauv. Blanc is we have not done one yet. We have done France Sancerre and PF, Chile, Calif and down under. We would be willing to spend $50-60 for the bottle. If you could include the name of the importer it would be very helpful.

Gary

I have an up coming tasting party and would like to serve the Cloudy bay. It will be one of 8 wines served. What would you serve with this wine


Gary

Gary, you have now garnered many thoughts on CB and I now offer mine. If you just HAVE to have a tapa or a dish with the wine, I suggest some kind of cold shellfish either alone, or as a salad. However, I have to also say that CB has priced it'self out of what I consider it to be worth. Nice wine, but nothing more than that, and there are a lot of others $8-12 less costly that offer similar bang for less bucks. It is amazing how much NZ SB has risen in price as CB has led the way. Personally, I wouldn't pay the price without offering another wine that I thought as good or about as good for $10 less...this way I open some eyes.

was looking for a CB because I was under the impression that it was one of the very best.
Gary

It is one of the best. No one has said it isn't but it's not so much better than the best of the rest that its higher price is justified, that's what we've really been saying.

As for what's available on the West Coast of the USA. I'm afraid I can't help, living in the middle of France! However if you can get the top SB from Allan Scott - I seem to remember it's called "Prestige" then you won't regret it. Allan Scott's winery is on the other side of the road from Cloudy Bay, by the way. Better still, if you can find a SB from Hawkes Bay - someone like Esk Valley, for example, you'll have a splendid wine, of a very different style to the grassy citrus Marlborough style.

Gary,
Cloudy Bay is indeed one of the best New Zealand SBs.
Looking through my notes, I liked Te Kairanga '99 some years back <g> and Wild Rock '08 a couple of months ago. I noted "The essence of NZ SB" about the Wild Rock.
As with all wines, the bottles and the drinkers' tastes will vary.

John