Is there a Bordeaux?

I'm approaching a milestone (or maybe a millstone) in a few months - my 70th birthday.
One thing I've never tasted is a Bordeaux that tells me what it's all about. I've had that experience with a few other wines, and I'm wondering if there's a Bordeaux that can possibly offer the "experience".
I've never in my life purchased a bottle that cost more than $100 retail. I'd be willing to go up to maybe twice that for a Bordeaux that tells the story. And I recognize that maybe I'm one of those weirdos that simply won't be impressed by some magical Cheval Blanc.
I would like to give it the old college try (class of '61).

So, can you knowledgeable folks recommend a Bordeaux, and a place where I might be able to find it, that would be instructive, worthy of a good party, and within my means? I'll actually need a couple of bottles.

John

Off the top of my head I'd say go find yourself a bottle of 1982 Montrose, 1982 Leoville Poyferre, 1990 Leoville Poyferre...those are all spectacular, fully mature Bordeaux that can be found around $200. Or push the envelope for 1989 Montrose (250), 1983 Palmer (300), or 1982 Pichon Lalande (400). You deserve some of the good life.

John,

This sort of search for the Holy Grail is probably best achieved on your own, when you can experiment with a bottle, give it a lot of time, and experiment with serving temperature too. Even a degree cooler can sometimes mean a great deal. And breathing time can mean everything. With a bunch of people, you tend to lose that "intellectual search" discipline!

I think to really coax something special out of a bottle of mature Bordeaux (or any wine, I guess...) you have to give it special attention, as far as breathing time and serving temperature are concerned. I always decant gently (if I'm going to decant the wine), use a moderate surface area carafe, and keep the wine gently cool at all times (I use a small insulated picnic bag with one of those gel-filled "freezer blocks" inside, and put the bottle or carafe in, or out, as needed). I find that this sort of attention is really necessary to get a "fine" wine to perform at its best.

Maybe all of this is nothing new to you, but since I think it is so important to really having a wine perform as it is might be capable of, I figured I would at least point it out....

As far as what is available that might fill the bill, I will have to look around, i.e. check out a place like premiercru.net. The way prices have been going, it is likely going to be hard to really find something "that special" within your budget, though many good older Bordeaux do sell in the $150 range. But finding multiple bottles can be a problem sometimes too!

I recently had a stunning '82 Beychevelle that might be worth looking for, if well-stored, and if you give it all the lavish attention I described! There was also an '83 Magdelaine that was a very great surprise to me, at least after it had breathed for quite a while, but that is a rather small production wine, and hard to find in any vintage. If you see any "top name" '79s or even '81s, they can be "quite good", and usually not very expensive, because the vintages aren't renowned. But they are decent, and the best producers sometimes turn out very good things. '76 can be like that too. I'm thinking of wines like Margaux, Ausone, Lafite, etc. These wouldn't be "total wonders", but they often have some magic to them in terms of subtley and nuance that you can linger over, and think about, over the course of a leisurely evening with a long dinner. This is not party time wine though. Too intellectual, not showy enough - which is the problem with trying to serve great old wines at parties, I think. Too much commotion and too little patience and intellectualism!

I'll try to take a look at what premiercru might have in stock, or what brentwoodwine.com might be offering in their current European auction. ...Paul

John,

A short follow-up. I see that PremierCru.net has *nothing* in stock that is remotely appropriate. Disappointing. However www.brentwoodwine.com has a couple things in their current European auction (ends this Wednesday at 11 AM Pacififc time, I think. They have a new auction each week). I've had good luck with all the older bottles I've gotten through them

For instance, they have two bottles of '86 Beychevelle - one at $75 (depressed cork), and one at $85. The '86 is not as supple as the '82 at present, but is a pretty darn good wine at that price (though, btw, there is a 12% bidders fee to add to these prices, for new bidders). It will need some considerable breathing time, and careful serving, as the '86s were quite "structured" with tannins, and still retain some of that personality, but this one has come around as I recall.

They also have one bottle of '82 Grand Puy Lacoste at $155. I haven't had this, but Parker's review is certainly promising. '82 was an excellent, ripe vintage, so the wine should be pretty darn good. Again, proper serving routine will make or break it, and they only have one bottle.

In what would probably be a much more restrained and intellectual style, they also have one bottle of '70 Ducru Beaucaillou for $145. I haven't had this, but it would be "educational" at least. In the sense that 1970 Bordeaux represents what the winemaking at that time turned out in what was called a "perfect vintage" weather-wise, by all the critics. They are typically still on the hard and youthful side, needing a lot of that coaxing and breathing time to show even decently, but when they finally feel like showing something, they can be very intellectual and interesting. Again, not a party wine probably! But again, I haven't had this particular '70, and they do vary somewhat in style. The review certainly sounds like it is more approachable. Still, I would expect something from the "old school", which is, in itself, something worth discovering, but probably by yourself, over the course of a long evening, when you can give it all the air time it needs, and gently experiment with cooling it off a bit, or warming it up a bit, to see what will happen! These wines just don't dance, right out of the bottle! Well, usually not, anyway!

Happy Birthday btw! I'm 62 myself, and have been collecting and "experimenting" with wine for quite a while now. ...Paul

Sorry to contradict Paul, but if you live in California and you've tried Bordeaux before but never "loved" it and you are looking for a revelation, based on broad assumptions I'm guessing the 1970 vintage is not the vintage for you. If your taste it toward California cabernet, I'd stick with 1982, 85, 89, 90. Of course these are broad generalizations of both you and the vintages in question. But I think say a 1989 Lynch Bages will give you more pleasure than any 1970 or 1981.

I do agree that storage is key.

[David M. Bueker]

John - I actually think you might be better off just sticking closer to home. Looking for that "experience" can be a frustrating search. Why not seek out one of the great, older Cal Cabs (e.g. an older Heitz Martha's or Mayacamas) & revel in what you love. Heck, I had the '79 Pine Ridge Napa Valley Cabernet last week, and it was fantastic! I bet something like that would not cost an arm or a leg, so perhaps you could get two or three different wines & have a real party.

And hey Paul - nice to see you around!

John,

I think that your target price point is going to make it difficult. It seems that you are looking for an epiphanal wine at low cost. I tasted an excellent 2000 La Mission Haut-Brion recently, but I think that it even comes in at about $350 bottle. I would be careful of the '82s as I have heard the most of the lesser Chateaux are quite long in the tooth. OTOH, the '82 Leoville Las Cases is the best Bordeaux that I have ever tasted. What you looking for may cost you a bit more than what you are planning to spend.

Interesting to see reccos on mostly the heralded vintages 1982, 1989, 1990 etc. The view from this side of the pond is that the prestige of these vintages has pushed the price up excessively (and especially in the US) and that there may be better value in a better producer / lesser vintage.

I remember having a stunning 1980 Lynch-Bages a few years back, which I preferred to the 1982 (though the latter will live on many a year, whilst the 1980 was probably just starting it's decline), yet the price difference would have been a factor of 4x or more

Perhaps 1983/1985/1986 offer a decent middle ground, of fine vintages, but without the overheating of prices for 1982 and 1990?

Of course these are very much generalist comments - perhaps the best option is for you to tell us what you've got access to and at what price, with those having knowledge of the wine commenting on their own experience.
____________________________________________________________________________________

However maybe there's a better alternative. What about seeking out a tasting of mature Bdx which will allow you to taste a number of wines, spreading the risk (as it were)? There is a risk with old bottles, that putting it all on one bottle may end up with a disappointing experience from an under-par bottle. The other aspect that would worry me, is an expensive example might not even be to your taste. I can understand what sounds like 'going in with an open mind' and that's a laudable approach, but would there be benefit in suggestions from folk here based on the sort of wines you normally enjoy? If only to narrow down between left bank / right bank or even dry white bdx or Sauternes (a great option for a 2nd bottle if you can get a good price on a red).

regards

Ian

2000 Palmer is around $200.

83 Cheval used to be around there. but now 300+
86 Talbot is undr $200 and consistently popular
82 or 90 Poyferre are good choices
Actually good bottles of 70 Ducro are tasty, and more fleshy than one might expect

Paul, I think your advice is helpful about spending time with a special wine, keeping it chilled, looking for changes with slight temperature change, etc. I will try to keep your tips in mind when I open a special wine.

Thanks for the ideas, all!
I've never bought wine on the internet or at auction. Where might I start looking, and are there unstated protocols and so forth?
I'll start Googling, but Google is best if you have some idea where you're trying to go.

My cellar contains a bottle of '98 Leoville Las Cases (the record-holder at $91.99) and a bottle of '99 Leoville Poyferre (much more reasonable at $29.70). They've been in my cellar since '02 and '03 respectively, so their storage should be considered "good" - it runs 55-60 degrees.
Would either of those be candidates?

I agree that a big party isn't the best place to savor the nuances of a remarkable wine, yet I don't cotton to the idea of sitting alone with a bottle at my elbow and telling it all my troubles, either. I expect a party, but it probably won't be more than 6 or8 people, and the "special" wines can easily be demarcated as "special".

John

I had the 99 Poyferre the other day and thought it was an excellent wine. I recommend it. It's no 1990 Poyferre, but you will probably enjoy it.

John,

IMHO, you wil NEVER see what the hoopla is about unless you try something that is mature. With Bordeaux, that means generally a *minimum* of 20 years, and 30 is better. That's why I suggested an '86 that happens to be approachable (the Beychevelle) as the youngest wine that I mentioned. The '82 version would be better, and I see that Premiercru.net has some "on order" for something like $125, but I would get a firm time frame from them (on the phone) about when they expect to receive that wine if you're interested. Sometimes their "pre-arrivals" don't arrive for a year or more!

Some '86s are still too tight, as it was a tannic vintage by nature. '82 is a better bet, but because the vintage was so hyped (and well-deserved) many of the top wines are very expensive now. '70 is older, but there was an older style of winmaking then too, and some of the wines, like Mouton or Montrose, are still quite hard. Bordeaux needs a lot of age to soften and develop all the nuances that made it famous. The top wines merit their position precisely because they age well. The same thing goes for Burgundy, and to really get a sense of what Burgundy is about, a grand cru or top 1er cru should also be 20 years old or more!

With http://www.brentwoodwine.com you have to click on the "Register" button somehere there, and enter your name and address and provide a credit card number that they will use to charge if your bid(s) happen to win the lot(s) you bid on. They e-mail you if you win, with what you were charged, etc. They are good too about waiting to ship until you have accumulated a number of bottles, to make the shipping costs more reasonable (i.e. it doesn't cost 6x to ship 6 bottles, compared to what it costs to ship one bottle). Just e-mail them back requesting they hold the wine(s) until you win some more and can combine shipments. BTW, their current auction has just ended, but another European auction will be up and running on Friday night or Saturday. Those wines I mentioned, if unsold, may be back next week. ...Paul

P.S. You can just click on the link in my post, or enter http://www.brentwoodwine.com in your internet browser to get there and check it out. But like I said, the European auction is presently closed. Premier Cru in Emeryville, CA is at http://www.premiercru.net (notice the ".net"). When doing a search there, choose "Expert search", and then fill in the parameters, and notice the check boxes for "In-stock wines only" or "Include pre-arrivals".

[Jenise]

Winebid would also be an excellent place for John to shop, as their storefront is in Napa Valley and John could physically pick up the wines there himself and not worry about shipping during hot weather.

John, take a few days to go to Bern's Steakhouse in Tampa, FLA. They have what you want at reasonable prices. Fly first class, because if you don't, your heirs will!

Thanks to everyone for your contributions. I ended up picking some bottles from my cellar and buying one other wine.
Here's the lineup:
Chateau Leoville Barton '00 (bought at Beltramo's today after a long discussion with their expert)
Chateau Leoville Poyferre '99 (lurking in my cellar and waiting since 2003)
Chateau Leoville Las Cases '98 (in my cellar since 2002)

I recognize they're all from the same house, and that they're somewhat youthful. I'll report in January, but it may be a bit muddled; good parties are like that.

John

Thanks to everyone for your contributions. I ended up picking some bottles from my cellar and buying one other wine.
Here's the lineup:
Chateau Leoville Barton '00 (bought at Beltramo's today after a long discussion with their expert)
Chateau Leoville Poyferre '99 (lurking in my cellar and waiting since 2003)
Chateau Leoville Las Cases '98 (in my cellar since 2002)

I recognize they're all from the same house, and that they're somewhat youthful. I'll report in January, but it may be a bit muddled; good parties are like that.

John

From the same house? I'm confused. They are all three under different ownership, but lie next to one another in St. Julien and were all originally part of the same large estate. All three are quality producers, but LLC is generally regarded with the greatest esteem, L-B gets a lot of attention from winegeeks and L-P often flies under the radar. I recall a tasting in the last 1-2 years, attended by Dale W and Matt Richman, in which several vintages of Leoville-Barton and Leoville-Poyferre went head to head, with the Poyferre often outperforming its more heralded neighbor.

Regarding your three wines, I'd expect the '99 to be drinking well right now, but that the '00 Leoville-Barton and '98 LLC will probably benefit from several more years in the bottle.

Mark Lipton

John..I was going to suggest a Leoville Barton, but any vintage but 2000. It is one of the tightest least forgiving LB's I have ever had, and I drink quite a lot of LB wine. If you could find a 1999 or 1997, and they both would be cheaper than the 2000, I think you would enjoy either more. The 1994 is also quite good right now.

I recently bought some of the 1998 on WineBid, but I haven't tried it.. and it was under $60 delivered.

Mark,
I was the one who was confused about the various Leovilles - shows how little I really know about Bordeaux.
James,
Regarding the Leoville Barton, the guy at Beltramo's said he'd opened a bottle this summer and thought it was drinking well, though youthful. I've talked to him before about wines and we're often in agreement.

John

Ok, it's January, and yesterday I turned 70.
My brother Steve and his son Bobby, and my friend Frank (since we were in 7th grade) joined me for dinner at Twist Bistro in Campbell. Steve was kind enough to pick up the dinner tab, and I brought a couple of bottles of Bordeaux.

Now I think I see what it's all about.
I got out the '98 Leoville Las Cases and the '99 Poyferre and opened them around 3 PM. The Las Cases had an immediate big perfumey nose and even in a just-opened state had a solid forest-floor ground and some dark cherry fruit. The Poyferre was very reluctant in the nose and showed a hint of cigar box, barnyard and leather, with real length. I left them open for an hour or so and retasted. The Las Cases had bloomed like a rose - just beautiful! And the Poyferre had kept its harder edges, showing a different side of wine, with lots of blackberry and cassis, solid tannin, and keeping the slight brett and leatheryness. (If that isn't a word, it ought to be!) So I put the corks back in and packaged the wine to go to the restaurant.

After we had all arrived and chatted a bit, we reopened the bottles. After some discussion with the maitre'd/sommelier, who offered to decant, I decided that we were in no hurry and we'd pour from the bottles. In the end, maybe I was only half right; perhaps the Poyferre would have become a bit more open if it had been decanted. The Las Cases needed no help of any kind at all.

We poured the Las Cases first, with just a taste of Poyferre - the restaurant kindly provided two glasses for each of us. With our appetizers (I had foie gras), the Las Cases was almost sweet - it picked up bright cherry flavor and had a lot of length. In the interval before the main course, we had a long discussion about the two wines, which of course required tasting a bit more.
There was plenty of wine for all of us, and I finished the last half glass of Poyferre with my dessert of three kinds of creme brulee.
The Poyferre kept gaining length as the meal wore on.
Each bottle was a solid A in my book. If I had another bottle of Poyferre, I'd want to keep it for a while, yet I haven't the least regret about opening this one I was fortunate to pick two "sides" of the Bordeaux equation and get to compare them. I gained a real appreciation for the range of flavors and enjoyment that are available.

It was a magnificent, three hour evening and maybe I don't mind my age quite so much!

John

John,
You are not far from K&L Wines in Redwood City and SF. They are offering 1961 Pichon-Baron (a second growth) Pauillac for a pretty reasonable price of $200, or $160 for a lower fill. I have not had this wine and cannot vouch for it, but it fits your price range and is likely to be as good as you can do for the great 61 vintage.

If you were willing to pay $350, the Second Growth Cos d'Estournel may be even better.

Redwood City was a lot closer to Santa Clara 20 years ago than it is now. 101 ain't fun!
I will keep an eye on K&L - of course right now I have a mild case of walletus flatus because I went up to Alexander Valley last week.

John
You only live once!

[Jenise]

Congrats on getting the message, John. Once you're on its wavelength, the complexity offered by good Bordeaux has no equal.