How old is "old" wine?

[Robin Garr]

Good question! To some extent it depends on the wine. Nouveau Beaujolais is too old in a year. Vintage Port doesn't get going good for decades.

In general, though, I think 25 or 30 years is sufficient to raise an ageworthy, collectible wine to reverential status. The 1973 Clos Ste Hune at the NYC offline last weekend did it for me, for example. And the birthyear Ports I've bought for Mary, but of course, she's ancient.

A wine is "old", according to my taste in the different situations :
- champagne : more than 20 years
- white dry wines : more than 20 years
- red wines : more than 45 years
- sweet wines : more that 60 years.

There is no sense to let age a wine for more than 50 years. Wines were not made for that.
But as some very old wines were not consumed for several reasons, the question is : when we drink those wines, is it too late ?
And in many cases, the surprise is incredible.

I have drunk in a blind tasting a Pontet Canet 1870 with one of the best sommeliers in the world. Trying to guess the year, he just made a mistake of 90 years !!!!

[Robin Garr]

There is no sense to let age a wine for more than 50 years. Wines were not made for that.

François, first, let me extend a very warm welcome to our new forum. I'm delighted that Randy invited you, and even more pleased that you accepted. You may know that this is a brand-new generation of an old online community ... although WLDG has been online in a variety of guises over a decade, this newest version is opening just today, which makes you a bit of a charter member.

I would agree in general about keeping wines past 50 years, but would you permit a few exceptions such as very fine Madeira or Vintage Port?

[Jenise]

"Old" is one of those relative words that a friend and I got into something of an argument about a while back. I referred to an 86 Gruaud Larose as an older wine, to which she haughtily said, "Old? I think it's young!" Now maybe the 86 is still tight and unready for current drinking, but 20 years old is not to my mind a young wine. She was coming from a preference for 30 year old First Growths while also objecting out of hand (and vanity?) to the use of the word 'old' as if old = bad. I disagreed because the fact that some rare Bordeauxs can have fifty year life spans is an anomaly to the ability of most wines to age and not a standard I think any reasonable person would judge 'old' by.

To my friend, therefore wine is not chronologically old until it's over the hill, and she would call it over much later than I would. Where for me, the word 'old' works in two ways, one subjectively chronological and one qualitative and not especially complimentary. If I mean 'old' in a good way, I usually opt for the word 'mature'.

The concept of "old" will never have one answer.
I agree on the fact that I am in a situation which is not completely usual, as I drink wines of the 19th century.

I will tell a funny story. I have a house in the South of France. The cellar is very small, so I buy by a shop some local Provence wines. I talked to the shop's owner who is a charming lady, and at one moment, I said : "you know that I collect old wines, perhaps have you in a hidden place some old wines".
And she answered : "oh, yes, I have still some old wines. I think I have some 2002".

So, to make a general answer to the question will be very difficult.

I hope I will be able to contribute but I must say that I am a little busy.
Good luck to this forum.

[Jenise]

"oh, yes, I have still some old wines. I think I have some 2002".

LOL, Francois. But that's exactly what I meant about the subjectivity of chronological age. 'Old' changes with the grape, place, and producer--and, apparently, some proprietors!

But let me not get offtrack here--do you actually drink 19th century wines, or do you merely own/collect them? And which wines in particular do you collect--Bordeaux? Any?

There is no sense to let age a wine for more than 50 years. Wines were not made for that.
But as some very old wines were not consumed for several reasons, the question is : when we drink those wines, is it too late ?
And in many cases, the surprise is incredible.

I have drunk in a blind tasting a Pontet Canet 1870 with one of the best sommeliers in the world. Trying to guess the year, he just made a mistake of 90 years !!!!

Francois, in general I would agree, with one exception: Vintage Madeira. The appellation laws won't even let it be released until it's 20 years old, and it may take another 30 years to teach it enough manners for it to be drinkable. Vintage Madeira is nearly immortal.

One of my most memorable wine experiences was drinking 1929 Mouton-Rothschild in 1988. Until then, I really hadn't understood why wine aficionados go ga-ga over old Bordeaux.

Then there are masterpieces such as the 1983 Adam Albert Hattenheimer Wisselbrunner Riesling Spaetlese. While this wine was aggressively tart when first released, it was also very aromatic, fruity, and enjoyable. It continued to give pleasure over 20+ years, with no "dumb stage", only getting better with age. The last bottle, which I opened a couple of years ago, was like liquid gold. Giving pleasure over a 20-year lifespan--one can't ask more from a wine than that!

-Paul W.

I agree with your older than me is old wine. The oldest wine I have tasted was a 1944 late bottled vintage port. It was a good wine, but not great. The age was its most impressive feature.

Like many of you, I believe "old wine" to be a relative term. I'd use the "older than I am" threshold, but I was born in 1977, so that mark holds little weight. I've had quite a few wines older than my father (who was born in '46), but the oldest wine I've tasted was a 1885 Sercial Madiera. A freind of mine once told be that old wines are fine as long as they're not menopausal(SP?)!

-Bill

The concept of "old" will never have one answer.
...
I hope I will be able to contribute but I must say that I am a little busy.
Good luck to this forum.

More dinners to organize, François?

I never really had a problem with this adjective. It depends on the wine. I have 9 year old CdR in the cellar, I wouldn't argue with anyone calling it old but would have a problem with someone calling it over the hill.

15 year from vintage Bordeaux or Burgundy is much more difficult. Not really old for either if a top wine (or even near an age to be at top drinking), but could be over the hill depending on vintage or producer.

Isn't the 1900 Margaux still drinking fine if well kept?

"Old" is a moniker best used in perspective.

I have the chance to collect wines and to drink them.
Just to give you an impression on what I have drunk before 1901, I keep a list of wines that I have drunk for the last 6 years. I have drunk other wines before, but I did not keep a file on that.
I must say that I give this list to give information. I do not want to impress or to show as I do not see the need for that. It is just to say that if I talk about old wines, I have a little experience.
When someone talks about 1923, I indicate what I have drunk, just to mention that I have a perspective on those years.
It will give you an idea about what I have drunk which represent wines that can be considered as "old".

Jerez (année de Napoléon) Nicolas - 1769
Lacrima Christi vin de Naples - 1780
Malaga Bénéfique Larios - 1800
Lacrima Christi vin de Naples - 1805 #
Chambertin, année de la Comète de Halley - 1811
Moscatel de Malaga - 1822
Malvoisie des Canaries - 1828
Muscat des Canaries - 1828
Fine Champagne - 1830
Rhum - 1830 #
Johanisberg Rheingau - 1835 #
Xérès - 1840 #
Chypre - 1845
Chypre - 1845
Vin de Chypre - 1845
vin de Chypre - 1845
Chypre - 1845
Chypre - 1845
Chypre - 1845
Chypre Ferré - 1845 #
Meursault Charmes Bouchard Père & Fils - 1846
Château Bel Air Marquis d’Aligre - 1858 #
Château Filhot - 1858
Meursault Charmes Bouchard Père & Fils - 1858
Grande Champagne Alfred Morton & Co 1858
Madère Sercial Gordon Gossart - 1860
Constantia Afrique du Sud - 1861
Château d'Yquem 1861
Montrachet Bouchard Père & Fils - 1864
Beaune Grèves Vigne de l’Enfant Jésus Bouchard père & Fils - 1865
La Romanée Bouchard Père & Fils - 1865
Clos Vougeot Bouchard Père & Fils - 1865
Montrachet Bouchard Père & Fils - 1865
Château Gruaud Larose - 1869
Elixir Raspail - 1870 #
Madère vieux, mis en bouteille en 1893 - 1870 #
Château Mouton Rothschild - 1870
Pontet Canet - 1870
Château Latour - 1870
Château Mouton Rothschild - 1870
Chambertin - 1870
Château Montrose - 1874
La Romanée - 1874
Pedro Jimenez Montilla Moriles - 1875
Rancio domaine de la Coume du Roy - 1875 #
Rancio domaine de la Coume du Roy - 1875 #
Porto Vintage Simoès - 1875
Château d'Yquem 1876
Xérès - 1877
Château Léoville en magnum - 1878
Calvados inconnu - 1880 #
Calvados inconnu - 1880 #
Liqueur de Mézenc - 1880 #
Sherry réserve de la cave du Prince Napoléon - 1880 #
Cognac Hardy - 1880 #
Aechter Schwarzwälder Wachholdbeergeist Joh. Haser zum Helbstock Haslach - 1880 #
Maury domaine de Volontat - 1880
Maurydoré Paule de Volontat - 1880 #
Château Mouton Rothschild - 1887
Montrose - 1888
Porto vintage - 1888
Muscat Mas d’Eu - 1889
Muscat d’Eu - 1889
Rhum de la Martinique - 1890 #
Rhum - 1890 #
Madère 1890
Malvasia de Sitges - 1890 #
Montrose - 1890
Cantenac Brown - 1890
Cantenac Brown - 1890
Banyuls - 1890 #
Château Larrivet Haut-Brion - 1891
Château Filhot - 1891
Schloss Volrads Riesling Rheingau - 1893
Montrose - 1893
Château Guiraud - 1893
Château d'Yquem - 1893
Château d'Yquem - 1893
Chassagne Montrachet Morgeot rouge Bouchard Père & Fils - 1893
Porto collection Maxim's - 1893
Château Guiraud, Sauternes 1893
Madère 1895
Madère - 1896
Château Guiraud - 1896
Malaga - 1898
Montrose - 1898
château de la Sauque - 1899
Pontet-Canet - 1899
Pontet-Canet - 1899
Musigny Coron Père & Fils - 1899
Beaune Bichot 1899
Grand Marsala Hors d’âge Nicolas - 1900 #
fine champagne du château Jousson - 1900
Fine Grand Armagnac réserve du Bailli - Suffran - 1900 #
Château Haut-Bailly - 1900
Château La Louvière - 1900
Château La Tour Carnet - 1900
Domaine de Pougnon - 1900
Tertre d'Augay - 1900
Château Margaux en 1/2 - 1900
Château Ausone - 1900
Montrose - 1900
Château Grand Puy Ducasse - 1900
Royal sec de Luze blanc - 1900
Coutet Barsac - 1900
Barsac Deluze - 1900
Château d'Yquem - 1900
Cheval Blanc 1900 #


If I had to say which one is the "youngest" within this list it would be the Montrachet 1864 which represents one of the ten best wines of my life.
The sign # means that the year is approximate.

[Jenise]

must say that I give this list to give information. I do not want to impress or to show as I do not see the need for that. It is just to say that if I talk about old wines, I have a little experience.

Francois, this goes without saying (at least on this board). Facts are facts, and it is a pleasure to meet someone with your experience. But it is nonetheless a very impressive list of wines, and my jaw literally dropped on my keyboard as I read through it. I've had several early 1800's Madeiras, a few 1928 Bordeaux and a 1936 Clos Vougeot. This week I'm going to have a 1953 Lafite, and I had a 1954 Spanish wine once. For pre-'61, that's the sum total of my experience with older wines, and it's rather paltry but perhaps somewhat par for the course for an American who doesn't run in super-wealth circles.

What color was the 1864? I've never even seen a wine like that.

And, do you organize annual or bi-annual Bordeaux tastings? Perhaps, recently a tasting of the entire 99 vintage that I may have read about on eBob?

The colour of the Montrachet 1864 was gold, but normal gold, not brown gold. So, no specific sign of age.
I make dinners with old wines a little more than once per month.
I usually make them in restaurants having two or three stars (Michelin guide) in Paris.
But a recent one was held in Chateau d'Yquem, as I opened a Yquem 1861. I was so proud that the castle was offered to me to host a dinner with my wines. It was due to the fact that I opened such a rare bottle, and that I am a "friend of Yquem", as I have a certain experience of their wine.
It is clear that the availability of old wines is much easier in France than anywhere else. But I was lucky enough to have begun my collection many years ago, beginning a cellar from scratch.

Note on the Montrachet : the Montrachet belongs to the collection of Bouchard which is unique. The wines are stored in Chateau de Beaune with a constant temperature of 11° Cs, and a humidity of 100%. So, no label would resist to time. And a man is devoted to the keeping of the old wines in good shape. No wine collector could maintain such old wines in the same state of conservation.

I guess anything older than the 1920s generally tends to put me in a different, more curious, more expectant frame of mind. But also there's the matter of historical significance of a vintage... Let's say "Year of the Comet", or some other such brouhaha. But also the year my grandfather was born, or my great-great-great-grandfather, if we're talking old Madeira. Or if it's a Rioja from a vintage made extra difficult, say, by the Spanish Civil War. Or if... Many factors. Time is one. But it usually doesn't work alone.

There is no sense to let age a wine for more than 50 years. Wines were not made for that.

So, I would guess Madeira is not wine, then... And, while we're at it, perhaps we should just establish once and for all that there is no use for the solera system and Sherry...

Alas, the 1922 Solera Montilla-Moriles from Toro Albalá that I've been drinking as an apéritif over the past week would beg to differ...

I agree with Manuel. Many a Madeira is not mature until at least a century has elapsed.

I agree with Manuel. Many a Madeira is not mature until at least a century has elapsed.

I think I forgot to mention that that dry Sherry I was talkign about was released quite recently...

Here are some madeiras that I have drunk :

Madère Sercial Gordon Gossart - 1860
Madère vieux, mis en bouteille en 1893 - 1870 #
Madère 1890
Madère 1895
Madère - 1896
Madère 1907

So, I cannot be really considered as having any ostracism against Madeira.
When I said there is no reason to make age old wines is because if you have in your hands a wine of more than 50 years, the best thing to do is to drink it. Not to cellar it for decades.

Concerning the fact that the symbol represented by the year is the main pleasure, I will not agree with that. I find a true pleasure in drinking old wines which give tastes that are impossible to find in younger wines.

But of course I love young wines too as I am not with a mind obsessed by old wines.

Here are some madeiras that I have drunk :

Madère Sercial Gordon Gossart - 1860
Madère vieux, mis en bouteille en 1893 - 1870 #
Madère 1890
Madère 1895
Madère - 1896
Madère 1907

Wow!!! Can this really be true? I've drunk an older Madeira than François?!? I've had the 1834 Barbeito Malvazia. That rocked.

François, what are your experiences with 1966 Bordeaux? I've just bought, cheaply, de Pez, Soutard and Certan de May. Considering the price I'm not too hopeful despite the good levels but I'm still hoping for the best...

Otto

Here are some madeiras that I have drunk :

Madère Sercial Gordon Gossart - 1860
Madère vieux, mis en bouteille en 1893 - 1870 #
Madère 1890
Madère 1895
Madère - 1896
Madère 1907.

Uyuyuyuyyyyyy, François, those are babies! I have had several examples of Madeiras from the first years of the 19th century that are still kicking, and qite igorously... Not that I've had the honor, but I hear from friends who are avid Madeira collectors that examples from the late 18th century have also shown very well in recent years (I've always wanted to try one of the legendary ones from the year of the French Revolution that apparently are still quite lively).

Francois, vintage Madeira is often not considered ready to bottle until it has aged in demijohn for a century or more. So I think you need to apply your 50 year rule relative to bottling date, not vintage date.

Thank you for your information concerning Madeira. I have some, dated 1800, that I will open one day. But I have time as, as you say, the bottling has to be taken into consideration.

For 1966, it is a year that I have cherished as it is the year of my wedding, and with my wife, we will celebrate 40 years of life together.

I like this year as I am used to it. It is not flashy, not powerful but subtle. So, you should drink these wines knowing what you do. Try to understand the message which is declared with a rather low voice, but which exists.

I prefer a subtle 1966 to a too powerful wine.
The bottle variation will play a role too.