WTN: question re sulfur

Got a few wine retailer mailings in last couple days. Something puzzled me in the K&L newsletter. An article entitled Growing Green starts " When I started at K&L , organic wines were the kind of product you only saw at Berkeley co-ops. Often loaded with sulfur, these wines were sometimes unstable in bottle and overpriced." He then goes on to talk about improvements in organic wines.

I underlined the part that puzzled me. Does this make any sense?

I was also pleased to note in the Garnet newsletter that they are carrying at least one of the excellent Donabaum wines from winemonger.com, and apparently are planning on more winemonger wines. Nice to have a local outlet.

Sulfur is used to combat powder Mildew. Sufer should not be used 30 days prior to harvest so that it does not impact the quality of the wine. Powder is a problem through harvest so you have to spray something. If one is not going to use a non-organic chemical, not sure what organic alternatives to sulfur where available at the time referenced and would go so far as to guess that the few that were available were not very effective. Therefore, most growers were probably spraying sulfur close to harvest instead of risking a powder infection. My guess is that the sulfur from the vineyard is what was in many of those early organic wines.

How is it that spraying powdered sulfur is allowed in organic farming? That's a chemical fungicide application.

In winemaking, sulfite (usually in the form of metabisulfite) is an extremely common antiseptic agent.

-Paul W.

How is it that spraying powdered sulfur is allowed in organic farming? That's a chemical fungicide application.

Don't know but a quick google search confirms that like cooper, sulfur is allowed under organic guidelines.

My guess is that the sulfur from the vineyard is what was in many of those early organic wines.

Makes sense. I was thinking about the sulphur dioxide. Funny that most organic wines emphasize that they don't add sulfites or only minimal, yet some apply sulfur in vineyards.

...An article entitled Growing Green starts " When I started at K&L , organic wines were the kind of product you only saw at Berkeley co-ops. Often loaded with sulfur, these wines were sometimes unstable in bottle and overpriced." ...

This could also be attributed to mercaptans, which are sulfur compounds that develop when hydrogen sulfide (H2S-rotten egg odor) is produced in the wine. There is a certain quantity of naturally occurring sulfur in grapes. Some yeast strains, including perhaps wild yeasts present in the grapes, require the addition of nitrogen compounds, such as ammonia salts, as nutrients for the yeast. If it's not added, bad things can happen and perhaps the addition of yeast nutrients is not allowed in organic wines.

I imagine they meant SO2, a common mistake.

But elemental sulfur is allowed in at least some definitions of organic agriculture, as is copper sulfate.

But elemental sulfur is allowed in at least some definitions of organic agriculture, as is copper sulfate.

WHY??

Strikes me as the height of hypocrisy. Either you permit chemical insecticides and fungicides or you don't.

Or are we setting an arbitrary date sometime in the "ancient and revered past", and any chemicals in use then are permitted, but everything since is cursed and an anathema?

If that's the case, then let's allow lead as a sweetener in wines. A very ancient and revered practice--dates back to the Romans, if not before.

Of course there's the small matter that it's highly toxic. Copper sulfate ain't that good for people, either, if it comes to that. Or powdered elemental yellow sulfur.

-Paul W. (more organic than thou )

Sulfur is much more than just a fungicide or insecticide. It is an essential element for the health and growth of the plant.

Salute

[David M. Bueker]

What's aritficial about sulphur or copper? Both are naturally occuring substances. You may not like them, but that doesn't make them "chemical" fertilizers.

What's aritficial about sulphur or copper? Both are naturally occuring substances. You may not like them, but that doesn't make them "chemical" fertilizers.

Well, they're not fertilizers at all but chemicals they are. Of course, so is chysanthemic acid, found in marigolds and chrysanthemums, so it all comes down to how one chooses to define "organic."

Mark Lipton

To make this even more complicated......

Working a vineyard with only those products classified as organic (rather one agrees with them or not) has other impacts. First the persistence of the protection they provide is not the same as non-organic treatments requiring more sprays throughout the growing season. Generally 7 day reapplication versus 10-14 day. This has the impact of more fossil fuel consumption and hence a greater carbon footprint. Plus the additional tractor usage often results in greater soil compaction that requires addressing in some manner.

Most "organic" fungicides have limitations that make it difficult (surely not impossible) to use throughout the entire growing season without risking damage to the grapes, impacting proper ripening, or impacting the resulting wine quality. Sulfur should not be sprayed when the temp is to be above 85 degrees and not within 30 days of harvest. Also some varieties as sensititve to sulfur. Copper also should not be sprayed within 30 days of harvest and there are issues with spraying copper on some sensitive varieties and in damp conditions. Additionally, while Copper is a good general fungicide but does not offer the same performance as non-organic products and is not a good option for growers in areas with high mildew pressure. Stylet Oil has been shown to retard ripening and is not recommeneded for sprays post bloom. There are some other products out now. I am not sure what else is considered organic but if the phosphoric acid products are organic they may be an option throughout the growing season as well as the potassium bicarbonate based products. However, all of the products mentioned (except copper) are only for mildew protection. None of them are for rot protection. Not sure what organic options exists for rot protection.

To make this even more complicated......

I've always gotten a kick out of "organic" agriculture, with its more or less arbitrary (in my view) of allowed chemicals. It doesn't matter whether said chemical is toxic or not, what matters is if it's "natural" as opposed to synthetic. Speaking from an admittedly California-centric point of view, generally nothing much is needed to combat powdery mildew after spring if over. In most winegrowing regions there is little to no rain from June through September and daytime temperatures are high enough to kill powdery mildew. The only time there's enough moisture and temperatures are favorable to powdery mildew is in the spring. Even then, most vineyards - even those that aren't officially "organic" - get by with regular applications of elemental sulfur in most years. Except for odd situations and very mildew-susceptible varieties, there's no real temptation to spray near harvest.

Everybody here has been trying to come up for a reasonable explanation for the Dale's K&L newsletter to organic wines of the past being "loaded with sulfur". Let me suggest an easier explanation: the writer might just have been confused. Again speaking from the point of view of a then California wine consumer, in my experience, "organic" wines of the past suffered most often from oxidation and from extremely short shelf life, attributes I chalked up mostly to the avoidance of sulfites in the winemaking process. I don't recall any of them being "loaded with sulfur". I do remember some pretty bad wine; organic winemaking was pretty much a fringe activity 20 or 30 years ago and I suspect the winemaking was just not very good in general.

Except for odd situations and very mildew-susceptible varieties, there's no real temptation to spray near harvest.

Oh how I wish I were on the other coast. Thanks for the clarification. I was unfortunately thinking from an East Coast perspective as I wrote.

Except for the fact that they've been used for nigh on 200 years, I fail to see what's "organic" about spraying sulfur and copper sulfate (i.e., Bordeaux mixture) as a fungicide. Those substances are in a different category whatsoever from using manure as fertilizer (to give one example of a truly organic agricultural practice).

Or one could always try making wine out of the native American grape varieties, which, at least in hot, humid New England (lethal to V. vinifera) don't have any problem at all with grey rot, black rot, mildew, oidium, or phylloxera. Funny thing, that--you'd think they were made to grow here or something.

-Paul W.

For cultivated and domestic Native American grape varieties, when it comes to powdery mildew I don’t think this is the case. Generally cultivated Vitis vinifera are much more susceptible to powdery mildew than cultivated Native American grapes. Cornell researches however discovered that wild Native American grape varieties which are “resistant” to powdery mildew are so because of the presence of a living organism (some kind of mite which actually feeds on the bacteria, fungus, or mold which is responsible for powdery mildew). Quite a few of the wine grape growers on Long Island are trying to control the disease status in their vineyards biologically. Being very concerned with the “health” state of their soil.

Salute

I thought sulfur was added to destroy native yeasts so that winemakers can add their preferred designer yeasts. In any case, I would be suspicious of any wine that called itself organic and was "loaded with sulfur".

I thought sulfur was added to destroy native yeasts so that winemakers can add their preferred designer yeasts. In any case, I would be suspicious of any wine that called itself organic and was "loaded with sulfur".

Jacques, if you re-read this thread, I think you'll see that the discussion has focused on precisely that point: sulfite additions aren't supposed to be made in "organic" winemaking, so where might that "load" of sulfur in the wine have come from? One possibility would be the vineyard where (strangely, to some of us), the use of both sulfur and copper sulfate *is* allowed. If sulfur is used in the vineyard too close to harvest, in other words, it's perfectly possible for an "organic" wine to contain a lot of sulfur. My alternative theory was that the writer who was quoted in the original post's newsletter just had a faulty memory.

Question for Mark Lipton, Brian Gilp, or Mark Willstatter (or anyone else);
When dusting vines with sulfur, is it the actual sulfur (elementary sulfur) that slows down or kills the bacteria, mold, or fungus responsible for powdery mildew? I always thought because of the heat of the sun and the presence of oxygen in the air that SO2 is produced and this actually slows down or kills the powdery mildew. Brian mentioned that it is not recommended to dust the vines on days above 85 deg- Why is this? Placing a sulfur strip into a basket attached to a chain (without burning it) and just lowering it through the bung hole of a barrel (empty of course) surely wouldn’t sanitize the barrel. Heck, I don’t think it does anything.

Salute

Victor,

There are two separate issues here regarding sulfur in viticulture and winemaking.

First viticulture: In the vineyard, powdered elemental sulfur, mixed with powdered copper sulfate. This is called "Bordeaux mixture" and it is THE most common low-tech fungicide remedy for mildew and oidium. I repeat my assertion that, however low-tech and ancient, this stuff is a chemical fungicide and as such has no place in organic agriculture. Period.

In winemaking, sulfite, the SO3-2 radical. Its anhydrous, gaseous form is sulfur dioxide, SO2, easily obtained by burning elemental sulfur. Sulfite is very nice for the winemaker because it kills or inhibits most wine-spoilage bacteria, whereas the beneficial wine yeasts tolerate it pretty well. Sulfite is well accepted as the universal antiseptic for winemaking equipment and processes. These days it's usually in the form of metabisulfite (aka Campden tablets), but in olden days they used to burn a sulfur candle inside empty wine barrels because the sulfite impregnation in the wood helped keep the winemaking process clean.

I know several respected winemakers who say flat out that any winemaker who refuses to use sulfite treatment of equipment and the must is putting their customers at risk of spoiled or toxic wine.

I'm sure that if the grapes from the field are properly cleaned beforehand, and if one observes strict sterile procedure in winemaking, such as I'd observe (given my background as a biologist) in culturing microorganisms on a petri dish, and ditto in bottling, that one can achieve satisfactory results without added sulfites.

Back in the bad old days before Pasteur in the 19th century, before we understood microorganisms, really foul wine used to be produced. Proper and moderate use of metabisulfite cured all that. It's sad to see the organic wine movement deliberately setting the clock back to a far worse time.

Use of sulfite in winemaking, provided it's in appropriate moderation, is one case where I say to hell with organic procedure. Give me something clean and drinkable.

-Paul W.

Question for Mark Lipton, Brian Gilp, or Mark Willstatter (or anyone else);
When dusting vines with sulfur, is it the actual sulfur (elementary sulfur) that slows down or kills the bacteria, mold, or fungus responsible for powdery mildew? I always thought because of the heat of the sun and the presence of oxygen in the air that SO2 is produced and this actually slows down or kills the powdery mildew.

In direct answer, I'm not sure. I've always heard of elemental sulfur powder used in conjunction with copper sulfate. I'm sure SO2 produced by solar action in the presence of oxygen has a lot to do with it. As does the Cu+2 caion in conjunction with the SO4-- anion (that combination is toxic to humans, too--not sure what the mechanism is).

There is no question of its effectiveness as a fungicide (both forms of mildew are fungi).

-Paul W.

To quote my viticulture teacher on why sulfur works in controlling powdery mildew in the vineyard, "We don't know why it works". That was 8 years ago and I have yet to hear of any explanation as to why it works since then.

Thanks Paul and Duane.

Salute

Victor,

There are two separate issues here regarding sulfur in viticulture and winemaking.

First viticulture: In the vineyard, powdered elemental sulfur, mixed with powdered copper sulfate. This is called "Bordeaux mixture" and it is THE most common low-tech fungicide remedy for mildew and oidium. I repeat my assertion that, however low-tech and ancient, this stuff is a chemical fungicide and as such has no place in organic agriculture. Period.

In winemaking, sulfite, the SO3-2 radical. Its anhydrous, gaseous form is sulfur dioxide, SO2, easily obtained by burning elemental sulfur. Sulfite is very nice for the winemaker because it kills or inhibits most wine-spoilage bacteria, whereas the beneficial wine yeasts tolerate it pretty well. Sulfite is well accepted as the universal antiseptic for winemaking equipment and processes. These days it's usually in the form of metabisulfite (aka Campden tablets), but in olden days they used to burn a sulfur candle inside empty wine barrels because the sulfite impregnation in the wood helped keep the winemaking process clean.

I know several respected winemakers who say flat out that any winemaker who refuses to use sulfite treatment of equipment and the must is putting their customers at risk of spoiled or toxic wine.

I'm sure that if the grapes from the field are properly cleaned beforehand, and if one observes strict sterile procedure in winemaking, such as I'd observe (given my background as a biologist) in culturing microorganisms on a petri dish, and ditto in bottling, that one can achieve satisfactory results without added sulfites.

Back in the bad old days before Pasteur in the 19th century, before we understood microorganisms, really foul wine used to be produced. Proper and moderate use of metabisulfite cured all that. It's sad to see the organic wine movement deliberately setting the clock back to a far worse time.

Use of sulfite in winemaking, provided it's in appropriate moderation, is one case where I say to hell with organic procedure. Give me something clean and drinkable.

-Paul W.

It does seem backwards to allow sulfur and copper in organic grape growing, but not to allow SO2 in winemaking. I believe it is less a matter of "organic" and more a matter of political correctness. The collective consumer still believes that sulfites were never added to wine until the 1980s, when the words "Contains Sulfites" first appeared on the label, and the collective consumer still believes that it was some sort of evil happening that prompted the additions of sulfites. That same collective consumer is so in the dark about farming that you could call just about any practice "organic" and it would sell.